The Not Happy Thread

Well, I'm in the awkward position of having to tell a classmate her writing is bad...

I'm not the best writer, and I don't mean to seem like I'm looking down on new writers, but after hanging around with you guys, I've learned a thing or two. I have edited her work once before, but she chose not to take my advice. Now she's asked me to email her my thoughts on her latest revision, which I think is worse.

I don't want to make her feel bad, but sometimes the truth hurts. I'll be as nice as I can; I just hate to be the bearer of bad news.

 

Being the bearer of bad news is often the best thing you can do for someone.

Does she respect you? Do you love her (I don't mean romantically, I mean does she feel inside that she can always count on you)? It's important.

When I was growing up, I had an uncle (I still have him - he's still alive, thank goodness) who was and is the most low-bullshit man I've ever met. When I was a small kid, and the rest of my cousins were all small kids, we learned that he loved all of us - he was always there for us, always helping us, seeing us through thick and thin. Because of that, we loved and trusted him. And that meant, as we grew older and started screwing up in our young lives, he told us in no uncertain terms that we were in the wrong and what we should do to make up for it. We all took his criticism because we all knew, deep down, that he was speaking from a position of love for us, and he was just trying to protect us and save us from further problems later on. We counted on him, and he taught us to be who we are.

If she respects you like I respect my uncle, than you can lay it on the line. She's young, right? She has decades in front of her to get it right. Tell her the truth. It'll hurt a bit now, but nothing like it'll hurt if you spare her feelings and she gets the smack in the face ten years from now, when it matters.

 

You may want to add that it's OK for new writers to be bad. Even the greatest writers were bad at one point.

 

Why thank you, @minstrel! That was a very touching and encouraging post. I can only imagine what it was like having an uncle like that.

Really, we don't know each other outside of class and only met when class began in January, so it's more than likely she doesn't trust me at all. ha ha! She's a young (around my age) creative writing major and she's very hopeful about her work, I just don't want to say anything that makes her insecure about her writing or makes me look harsh and judgmental.

It's important to hear the truth, and since she has asked me for my thoughts, I can assume she values what I have to say. I guess I'll just tell her it's okay for new writers to be bad. Writing well is a skill that takes time, practice and proper education. Like @thirdwind said.

 

@Andrae Smith, are you a creative writing major as well?

 

No, English literature. I was interested in Creative Writing, but I thought Literature would be more practical and would look better on paper (especially going into the teaching field). I've just got a little experience because I've been interested in writing fiction for a few years (though only taking learning seriously for about 2 years at most). I've read a couple of books and a few good handfuls of online articles and lectures about writing. I took a fiction writing class last semester, I'm taking one on poetry this semester, and I've been a ember here since I graduated in 2012.

 

Why is it always about being "bad" or "good"? If the sentences are poorly worded, say it. If there's cliches, say that. I once had to tell a first year researcher he was doing a poor job. At first I walked around feeling way too self important and far too distressed over my great "burden". It took me a night's rest to realize all I had to do was tell him what works better.

 

You know, you're absolutely right! It's not about good or bad, but the effectiveness of the writing itself.

 

There's a reverse way of looking at this. Accepting criticism under a "good vs bad" lens makes it that much more difficult to apply potentially good advice and also that much more difficult to experiment. About 30% of the stuff I write gets trashed by my two betas, and these are people who love me. I don't take anything personally, I'm just a vehicle trying to produce good writing. One reason why I like JayG's advice so much is because it's never about the writer, it's about the technique.

 

Hi everyone, I joined this forum only yesterday! After reading a few threads, I strongly feel that I'll be learning a lot here. This is such a nice place where hardly anybody knows the other out of the forum but everyone is so supportive. I'm interested in poetry, will be posting them after couple of weeks (after qualifying to do so). I'm so eager to see everyone's response!
You guys are awesome.

 

I have an interview next week to see if I get granted a US visa...I'm pretty apprehensive about this, to be honest. I hope it get's granted so I can be in New York for the start of March. Wish me luck

 

I wouldn't tell her her writing is "bad," nor would I say it's "okay" for new writers to be bad. I would just point out what was problematic for me and leave it at that. Also, be sure to point out something positive (surely there must be something) at the beginning. Even if you think it's just the idea that is good. (Start out with something like, "I think you've got a great idea for a story here, and I'm really interested to see how it ends up..." Then you can point out the specifics. If at any point you chuckle or smile, point that out -- anything positive you can say, you should. Just don't lie. If you have nothing else positive, just leave what you've said at the beginning. (Note that if you smile at something, that can be good or bad -- if it's intended to make you smile, then that's great, that's some good positive feedback you can give. But if it's in the middle of some very serious, somber passage, and something about it is striking you as cheesy or somehow incongruous with that mood, point it out. )

 

I don't like myself. I get attached to friends way too easily thus hurting myself!

 

Hope it goes well for you.

 

If only you had said this sooner! I reached the same conclusion and didn't say it's good or bad. I went with effective and ineffective and pointed to specific places. I also told her what to watch out for in her writing and why those things cause issues.

 

Don't not like yourself, pal. If there is one person in this world that you should like, it is yourself. You are all you've got. You must learn to be content on your own so that when you make new friends you love them and enjoy their company, but you don't have a need to have them as a part of your life. People come and go, and that is inevitable. We just have to remain open for life to do what it does: change, shift, and flow.

There's nothing wrong with you. Forming strong attachments to our friends is natural. It is part of the bonding process, and it is what keeps us together and empathetic towards each other. Humans are, by nature, social beings. We want to form communities and long-lasting friendships. What we are blind to here in the West, and even more-so when we're young, is how to let people be people. We all have our own lives to live and must go our own ways, which will sometimes pull us apart. Sometimes, the friends we have turn out not to be who we thought they were, and we feel "betrayed." We can't always help that. People change. All we can do is learn to let go and let life flow.

Don't feel bad about your circumstance though. You'll be alright.

 

Hi, welcome to the forum. There is a Happy Thread in addition to this Not Happy Thread. Just thought you should know.

 

Is there something specific you can tell her about her writing that's not working (and why), or some really inspirational idea you could give her? Is it the mechanics of her writing that suffer, or is she just bad at thinking up stories, or bad at other aspects of storytelling?

I suspect if it's the mechanics—she can't string sentences together in a coherent manner—there isn't much you can do. She'll need to study the basics before she has any chance of becoming a decent writer.

However, just about any other aspect of her writing is something you could work on. Brainstorm a bit. Look for that little trigger that will cut through. Has she got an interesting character? What would YOU do with that character, if he/she was yours? Help her 'what-if' her way through her plot or character development. Give her ideas she may shoot down, but will get her thinking. Little things like that.

If, however, as you indicated in a previous post, she refuses to listen to you, there isn't much you can do. She MUST value what you've said before, though, or she wouldn't keep coming back. So maybe you ARE getting through in some small way. But you don't need to waste a lot of time on her, if she won't listen. Just tell her 'kindly' that this kind of writing is not your thing, and she'd probably be better off seeking another mentor. You can lead a horse to water...etc etc...

 

Thanks

 

Actually, it all can be fixed. It looks to me like she's trying way too hard to write creatively. For one, she uses too much repetition and way too many fragmented sentences. Nearly every noun has an adjective attached to it and many of her descriptions are awkward or don't even make sense (i.e. "The hushed owl of the wind..."). This particular piece, which she was ill-advised (imo) to turn into poetry, is also littered with redundancies and fat in need of trimming. Besides that, the syntax is not very strong either. It just feels like very very beginner writing, which is not inherently bad, just in need of improvement.

The only reason I'm disturbed is that I already edited it once, and this version is worse. She apparently didn't agree with my suggestion, as she didn't take any of them. The assignment is to write a 400-500 word magazine article with a theme of "Change." We were then split into groups of 3 and told to edit each other's articles based on what we've learned (it's an editing class, so that's the most important part). The other editor in our group advised her to turn it into a poem, which I advised against because her style was more prosaic; it just needed more precision. I don't know what the other editor in our group said in her revision, but I gave this girl everything she needed to tighten up her writing (revisions, commentary, advice) and left plenty of room for her to go at it in her own voice.

I guess I shouldn't be bothered, then. The magazine editer (a student intern) already told her that the article isn't good enough, but it seems she really wants to make it better. The trouble is, she doesn't see what's wrong with her writing. I also edited her letter of transmittal and I realized that writing, in general, is not her strong point. Ah well, final drafts are due tomorrow. I gave her another full critique and a handful of sugestions and explanations again, so there's nothing else I can really do.

 

This kind of thing is hard to take, I know.

One thing I've done in the past, when confronted with writing like this, is to ask, "Are you modeling your writing on some famous published writer? Show me who writes like this." Maybe I'd confront her with a passage from her work and a similar passage (similar in intent, not in subject matter - you mentioned a 500 word magazine piece) that was actually published. (The New Yorker is a good source for well-written, short pieces like this assignment.) Confront her with what doesn't work in her piece, and how the published writer handled a similar problem.

I know it's too late to help in this particular case, but you might think about trying this in the future.

 

That is really good advice. I never thought of that. It is a bit too late for this project, but I'll remember this for the next time I run across this issue. I have no problem with people not taking my advice. I know I'm not a pro., and my suggestions are not the only way to do things (nor the best, sometimes). But it does make it hard to help if you choose to completely ignore all but one of my suggestions (the only advice she took was to put her section about autumn after the one about summer).

Next time around, I'll look for a published piece to use as a point of comparison.

 

Remember, too, that you don't have to be a great (or even good) writer to give good advice. Think like a sports coach. You can't do what the athlete can do, but you can definitely help them understand what's wrong with their technique and suggest ways to help them correct it. So it shouldn't matter if you're a pro or not. Yours is an educated opinion, and that's worth a lot.

Best of luck!

 

Hey! I appreciate that. And I love the analogy. It makes a lot of sense to me because I coach discus (trying to get a job with one of the local schools this season) even though I never threw beyond high school competition.

 

@Andrae Smith - Well, you tried your best with your classmate, and it sounds like you did a good job. She's got to take on board what you've told her, and stop being so blinkered. I think the biggest obstacle we beginner writers need to overcome is our own misconception of what writing is/should be. Once we get over that, the land gets flatter and easier to explore.