Touchy Topic: Female on Male Rape

Discussion in 'Research' started by Yume No Okami, Mar 17, 2015.

?

Is this a good idea?

  1. Yes (please reply why)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No (how come?)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yeah- try this (reply below)

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  4. No, but do this (below yay)

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Lol that sounds like what every generation thinks though. I'll bet Oscar Wilde or Shakespeare would lament over the books of today. And the next generation will fear exactly the same as you do now lol. We just grew up on different stuff and accept different stuff as norms, that's all, and so our sense of what's quality might differ too, to some extent.
     
  2. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    1,023
    Location:
    London, now Auckland
    Ah, but my fear is based on media being simplified to appeal to a global audience, and media being diluted by every talentless hack with access to the internet.

    These are recent phenomenon.
     
    Sipsik likes this.
  3. Nicoel

    Nicoel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    343
    I've been reading the thread all day, and just wanted to poke my two cents in on the 50 shades tidbit. I've read the blogs where they're "quoting" things. Half of those quotes are taken out of context. The first example comes to mind is that when Christian came to Ana's apartment, had sex with her (this is a controversial scene in of itself), then leaves. Ana begins to cry after he leaves, because she doesn't want him to go. They've managed to quote this, making it seem like Christian did something to make her cry and just gave zeros fucks about it. (Ironically, he came to her apartment BECAUSE she was upset and was worried. Did this twice in the book.)

    I'm not defending the abuse, there's definitely some creepyiness that happens, it's just the blog entries irritate me.

    Also, I agree that there's something about these books that are just... attractive. I completely agree that it's shit writing, but by the middle of the second book I was a bit hooked.:unsure: I think it may be something to do with having the fulfillment of the fantastical, yet at the same time able to still feel like the hero at the end of the day. If you look at it, Ana and Bella both have gazillionaire boyfriends with serious emotional and self worth problems. That's an issue that most of the teenagers in the younger generation are struggling with. Then you have the main character which is "quirky" and "normal" and they get to become the hero of their loved ones.

    In conclusion, I think it's a strong mixture of fulfilled fantasy and relatability that makes it so attractive.

    I can't spell or do grammar today guys. I'm sorry. D:
     
    cutecat22 and BayView like this.
  4. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    If that's what the reader wants ...
     
  5. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Haha by the middle of the 2nd book - that does say something about EL James's writing ability, I must say. That's a book and a half too late to hook anybody! Can't say I was hooked - couldn't care less when I finished the first book.

    I'm not sure you can be "quirky" and "normal" at the same time lol - however, it is indeed true that that's often how teenagers see themselves. Totally unique while feeling like a complete nobody. The "nobody" who becomes the hero of the story and of their love interest is very common though - so while I agree that would add to why 50 Shades and Twilight got so popular, I don't think that's the only, not even the major, factor.

    @Chinspinner - I should start calling you Chin. Or Chin-Chin :D Anyway, nah, the audience has got larger but nothing's changed. Stupid people are everywhere. If anything, a larger audience might actually mean the stupid stuff gets less stupid - unless of course we believe most people are actually stupid rather than the other way around... What I'd be more worried about is that it'll become harder and harder to come up with new things, unique things, because cross-cultural influences are prevalent and inevitable and pretty soon you would've tried every combination there could possibly be. We might still have an age where fresh ideas grow due to this mix-pot of cultures thanks to the internet, but that's gonna plateau at some point, and then what? :unsure:
     
  6. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    Funnily enough, there are exactly as many people who have above average intelligence as there are with below average intelligence.

    The problem with a larger audience is that it takes a smaller percentage of that audience to make it worth producing something. That means that an increasing number of people can produce something that will reach that audience. The "agents" who mediate between producers and consumers will now have to dig deeper into their slush pile to get something to produce.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  7. Nicoel

    Nicoel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    343
    Haha, well, the first book ends on that cliffhanger of "oooh will Ana forgive him?" And I was so irritated with Ana at that point, I felt a strong compulsion to keep reading. :"D I'm not sure that's a trait an author wants to portray in their characters though haha. I think once Christian had his epiphany about causing harm to Ana (second book), I was mentally like, "Okay - so you're not a complete psychopath. I can like you some more. I think."

    Do you have any other theories about why books like this are so attractive? Other than the marketing?
     
  8. Sipsik

    Sipsik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    9
    Jealousy? Are you kidding me? Have you seen the interviews with the author? To me it sounded like she has very low intellect, also, if you enjoy reading about abusive relationships and mysoginism, maybe you should look into yourself and think through your values. Think what it teaches to vulnerable and easily affected teenagers about relationships. Think about it. Really, do.
    Also, if you think auhors should give the majority of people to read what they want or think they want, you are not much of an author. An author should write about s/he cares about and has at least sufficient knowledge about. But when writers started to publish according to what the audience graves for, we would not have quality literature soon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Dude, you probably shouldn't accuse other people of "low intellect" in the same sentence as you use the word "mysoginism".

    And what does "graves for" mean?

    If you think authors should write message board posts with made-up words and run-on sentences, you are not much of an author.

    Think about it. Really, do.
     
    cutecat22 and Mckk like this.
  10. Sipsik

    Sipsik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can you forgive me for not being a native speaker? Also can you forgive me, that I have an opinion. Should we all just lick each others feet and agree on everything? Let it go
     
  11. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    And maybe you should think about your manners. Maybe you should also think about how judgemental you're being - first you comment on a book based on nothing except someone else's opinion and now you shout down at someone else in defence of an opinion that isn't even your own. Makes sense though - if you'd make such presumptuous judgement on a book you've never read, it does seem reasonable that you'd be equally presumptuous about people you don't know.

    Learn some manners, and stop flaming. You call yourself a writer - now learn to write in a more civil manner while still spelling out your opinion.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  12. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    But you speak English well enough to decide that someone is of "low intellect" based on what she said in an interview? I guess that does kind of fit in with your ability to judge the writing of a book you haven't read.

    If you're going to be negative, expect some negativity in return. And if you express an opinion, expect someone else to express an opinion in return. We should NOT lick each other's feet and agree on everything, and I will not lick your feet and agree on your nonsense. Goes both ways, buddy.
     
  13. Sipsik

    Sipsik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    9
    I can agree that I am negative and without any manners, and a complete idiot if you will but I am never going to agree, that a book that glorifies abusive relationships and manipulation should be so intensively protected from any kind of critic. Do I have to read word by word to get the general idea?
     
  14. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Personally, I do wonder if an unhealthy view of gender roles play a part. Potentially it could be taken two ways.

    The first - generally speaking, women are celebrated when they are submissive and men celebrated when they're dominant. Never mind feminism and all that - just take a look at the romance genre, romance book covers, and just in general what the general public find romantic when they witness a relationship or perhaps an image. The woman inevitably takes the more submissive position (man grabbing her from behind, or woman lying under the man, or the man supporting a swooning female lol). In general men are seen as very attractive when they are assertive. I remember in the film The Proposal with Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock - Sandra was a domineering boss in complete control and command. By the end of the film, the roles have reversed and it's her running away and the man chasing. The climax of the film, which is meant to turn every woman's heart to mush, is when the man shouts across the office at her saying that he's gonna stand his ground and insist and not let her walk out of his life. He's taking control, while the woman has lost control, and it is perceived as extremely sweet.

    So, Christian and Ana's relationship is basically the unhealthy extreme of already celebrated models of submissiveness-dominance.

    The second - now this is just a theory. But women these days are pushed to be ambitious, successful, and to be in control. Fiesty, strong, dominant female characters are celebrated quite widely these days at least amongst books - Katniss from Hunger Games is a good example. Hazel from Fault in Our Stars too - Hazel's sassy with a personality and very stubborn, as well as brave in the face of death.

    But what if a woman prefers to take the back seat? Not every woman is the same. For example, personally, I have no career ambitions and am quite happy to let my husband be the breadwinner. When I got pregnant, there's never been any question of who'd stay at home, and that's cool. My husband actually finds it more attractive to have a woman depend on him - he does want me to help by working a little, but ultimately he enjoys looking after me as long as I don't become a couch potato lol. This fits the more traditional gender roles if you think about it, but it is no longer "acceptable" to say as much - for a man to say he enjoys providing for the woman and for the woman to say she wants to be a housewife. (I do not want to be a housewife, but that's just an example) In the UK it's common for the couple to split the bill on a date. Equality trumps all, even courtesy at times.

    And 50 Shades basically puts Ana firmly in the submissive role and Christian firmly in the dominant, provision role. I wonder if on some level, it's fulfilling a very basic fantasy that some, or a lot of, women have. And that is, to be submissive. To play the weaker party, to be a follower. (being a follower is not synonymous with being weak, however) To stop leading for once. Since not many books or movies these days allow women to fulfill such fantasies so fully anymore, maybe that's why 50 Shades became so attractive - again it's taken to the extreme because a more moderate form of submissiveness and dominance are no longer allowed or encouraged.

    All just theories though.
     
    cutecat22 and Nicoel like this.
  15. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    When did anyone "intensively protect" 50 Shades? And when did anyone say anything about people not being allowed to critique 50 Shades? You've read your own stuff into the posts and it's not cutecat's fault. Calm down, read more carefully, and then state your opinion more calmly.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    "Protected from any kind of critic"? Well, I think I'm mostly trying to "protect" the book from critics who haven't even read it. Other critics? Sure, whatever. I'm not defending the book, I'm just defending the intellectual honesty of a discussion. And it's rarely intellectually honest to criticize books you haven't read.
     
    Nicoel likes this.
  17. Nicoel

    Nicoel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    343
    Those are the lines along which I was thinking - it's the fulfillment of fantasy. I agree about the gender role switches as well. However, there's a lot in 50 Shades that makes me wonder how "Dominant" Christian really is. Yes, Ana let's him tie her up, but she really has all of the power throughout the series. After she leaves Christian, he's so heartbroken that he comes to the conclusion that he'd do anything to avoid ever feeling like that again.

    He tells Ana that they can try to be a real "boyfriend/girlfriend" and he doesn't do anything extremely kinky to her. Nothing that involves pain. The very idea of hurting her, hurts him. In fact, their first time back into the Red Room of Pain was instigated by Ana. Ana controls the pace of the relationship, what they do and don't do, and she basically takes him back (WHOAH De Ja Vu writing this) on her own terms. Of course, Christian has his own mental problems, like being touched, but because it's the "more" Ana wants, he finally comes to terms with it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that on the surface Christian is in control (esp sexually), but as far as their relationship goes, Ana is. And hey, maybe that's also what women are trying to fulfill. There's such an expectation for females to be STRONG and INDEPENDENT, it's nice to just be dominated.

    My whole life I've struggled to find independence and control away from my parents, and the thought of a man I trust and love taking that weight off my shoulders like that (for a brief while) is attractive to me.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  18. Sipsik

    Sipsik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    9
    Hmm, sorry, it seems I did not see all the posts at first. And my comment seemed a lot more malevolent than intended. I was only arguing about, the claim, that there is many jealousy considering the book, and it deeply confused me, because I could not see, why anyone, leaving out the huge incomes, would be jealous or wanted to be instead of the author, who is known now for such a book. My use of the word low intellect had nothing to do with the fact that the author is a woman, as it was wondered about, how I can judge someone´s intellect based on how a person speaks, also use the word "mysoginism in the same sentence. I also did not claim, or intended to claim- if that´s how it seemed- that cutecat is not much of an author, I meant, that an author who rather chooses to write according to the audience´s requests, is rather a machine than someone who wants to write for the sake of writing. I think the confusion came from my bad usage of the word "you", rather than "they" or smtg similar. Ofc you know better, the ones who have read the book. It was my first impression of the topic of the book and the auhtor. Of course, my opinion or anyone else is not dogmatic. I don´t know, judge for yourself, don´t take anyone else´s impression(s) no matter how many of them almost identical, and see for yourselves. Perhaps I am really wrong, and she is a delightful human being. I really don´t know. also I remember, there are some good reviews of the book, so, whether something is good or bad is debatable to the very end.
     
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Are you kidding me?

    How dare you?

    Maybe we should look into the life of Martina Cole who has written a whole load of books about London gangsters and killings, I wonder what goes through her mind on a daily basis! And while we're at it, lets take a mosey on through Stephen Kings' brain, what a strange and wild ride that would be. Oh, and while we are there, we'll take a sharp left and have a wander into Jackie Collins' world, what would her books teach to vulnerable teenagers?

    As for abusive relationships, I've been in one, mate, and Fifty Shades of Grey, is not it!

    Every book on Waterstone's shelves will teach something wrong to a certain set of people because we are all different. There are people out there who live the FSOG lifestyle, there are also people out there who live the life of Maude Flanders and people living the lives of everything in-between.

    And as for attacking James' intellect, that is extremely rude of you.

    I write what I want to write, for me. I write the stories which I want to read, but can not find on any book shelves. It just so happens that there are people out there who love what I write just as much as I do, so please do not profess to know what kind of author, or indeed, what kind of person, I am. You can lead a reader to what you consider great literature but you can not make him/her read so whatever authors can do to get more people reading, is always going to be a plus in my book.

    Smart ass comments like yours, will be the thing which makes me leave this forum, a forum which I mistakenly thought, was a place for authors and writers (published or not) of all genres, all levels and all intellects, to discuss the nature of writing, not a place to publicly slag off anyone who has actually had the balls to write a novel and send it out into the public arena.

    And if you want to start talking about intellect, as you seem to think you have more than E L James and probably the rest of us on this forum, try reading through your posts to check for grammar errors, spelling errors and the correct use of present/past tense before you hit the 'Post Reply' button.
     
    Nicoel likes this.
  20. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    :chill:

    Let's steer the thread back on topic, thank you very much. The topic is not E L James sucks or 50 Shades. There is one -- or probably several -- threads like that in Book Discussion, but this is not it.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
  21. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    I think there's also an element of Christian's imperfections which draw you to him. Yes, he's got money, big apartment, his own company and everyone falling at his feet - the alpha male - but he's also got problems, and I mean big, psychological, "don't touch me there and how can anyone love me ...?" problems. If you were to take the sex out of it (I know you can't, it's a big part of him but, bear with me) the story line is basically Ana's journey of finding out his problem and helping him to first, accept it and then, fix it. That - in it's simplest form - is what it is.

    The abused, becomes the abuser, it's all he knew, it's all he knows until someone comes along and says, "hey, life's not like that ..."

    And there are millions of people out there who have been abused (in one way or another) who have read FSOG and then realized that they needed to make a change in their life. I'm not saying for one minute that people have read the book and had a epiphany, but for some, it's changed their life, given them permission to be different, acceptance of what they've gone through and the guts to come out the other side.
     
    Nicoel likes this.
  22. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    My apologies, I have only just seen this. I was defending myself from being told - by a complete stranger - that I am not much of an author and need to look at my values.
     
  23. Nicoel

    Nicoel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    343
    Thank you. You said it much more simply than I have. <"3

    I would also like to add that you're a lovely writer, and don't let people get you down about this site. I'm still a "newbie" on the forum, and I still think this "was a place for authors and writers (published or not) of all genres, all levels and all intellects, to discuss the nature of writing."
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  24. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Thanks. I did kinda fly off the handle a little. We've sorted it now but thanks for your kind words. @Mckk @Chinspinner and @BayView will all tell you that I sometimes have trouble explaining exactly what I'm trying to get across so you're not on your own with that one! xx
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice