Why does everybody think the reason to get a degree is to get a better job? That's only one possible reason to get an education. Going to university expands your mind. Learning, even without the goal of a better job, makes your life better. Isn't that sufficient reason to attend university?
I agree, but at the same time I think it's a bit of a privileged view. I mean, I spent eight years of my life in university, mostly pursuing things not directly related to my future career, and it was great, and it enriched my life, definitely. But while I truly believe that learning for its own sake is sufficient reason to go to university, I also believe that taking time out of the workforce and actually paying other people to support your learning is a very expensive way to do something you can do for free if you don't want the degree. There are free libraries, great online courses, and countless other ways to pursue education that are more open to people with limited financial flexibility. So when we're talking about writing, especially, an education path that is very unlikely to make back the money spent, I think it's logical to question whether it makes sense to pursue formal education or informal education. Nobody's saying we shouldn't all learn about writing - we're just asking if going to school for it is the best way.
Could we not have a separate, or a parallel thread for those of us with our degrees, allowing the people to maintain their dialogue, whilst we perhaps might debate philosophy of language and stuff without confusing folk.
No gaudy graduation for @cutecat Indeed a ceremony at the palace stood aside Mat in her mortar hat. He, who was awarded a medal for bravery bravery in his gravery a custard of heroes all gathered they flew from Heathrow a writers' convention two week detention. Get that degree when you collect your pension Don't mention it I'm getting better at it every draft.
If it were free, then yes. I would be the first one in the queue to sign up. And this is where the privileged part comes in. You could be the brainiest person in your high school class but if you/your family can't afford the university fees (I'm in the UK) then you don't go to university. Equally bad, you could be the lowest achiever in the class but if your family has the money to pay you through uni, you will get a place. But, life is also a learning curve. I may not have traveled the world (unless you count Google earth/street view) but I have lived my life. I have done and seen things that some people only read about, things that others may only ever dream about. Things which could've got me into a heap of trouble and things and things which have changed my whole outlook. There are subjects in which I could run rings around people with degrees but I would still snatch the hand from anyone who offered me the chance to gain a degree. @Selbbin is absolutely right with this: People with a creative writing degree tend to be less creative, because like most people who 'learn' rather than discover, they do it the way it's meant to be done. They don't explore and discover.
And what @plothog said with: The advantage of the degree route is that a degree has other uses too. It can increases your chances of getting a job. In some cases the subject of the degree doesn't matter so much, it's proof to employers that you have some intelligence and you can work reasonably hard. I absolutely agree that having a degree shows to future employers/anyone that you are of a decent level of intelligence and can work reasonably hard (even though I have seen first hand that this is not necessarily true when it comes down to the actual work) but does that mean that because I don't have one, I am less intelligent or incapable of working equally as hard on something?
For what it's worth @cutecat22, I studied a couple of modules, A215, A363 on the Open University. If you're 'confirmed' in your sense as a writer, then maybe the course is not for you. If, however, writing has been like an itch waiting to be scratched, then a proper CW course is a fine release, to be among your ilk and experiment with words, lose the self-consciousness about it all, it's a fun course, like a super-charged version of the scene here...best done when you're 'between jobs' to get the funding, or if you have a spare two thou on the inheritance...
Not at all, but I'm sure you knew that From the point of view of someone assessing you from a CV/resume it might be harder to distinguish whether you're one of those who doesn't have a degree because you're lazy and/or thick. There are alternative ways to prove that isn't the case of course. A good employment record where you've worked up from the bottom is at least as good as a degree. I think in your case, your self published book helps some. (I'm not sure exactly sure how much stock employers place in such things, but most people here know how much work it takes to get a book into a finished state.)
I suddenly feel like the luckiest bastard in the world for being born in a (former) socialist country and have spent maybe 500€ for four years on the faculty - mostly on textbooks and exam entry fees... Oh, the joy of transition economies
I think the statement is more theoretical, like, if you take a course in creative writing, you will be taught what is right and what is wrong. If you figure it out for yourself, you will discover what works and what doesn't work. Doing the course will not guarantee you a bestseller just like not doing the course will guarantee you fail but what's right doesn't always equate to what works!
That is not how a course in creative writing works. And the statement wasn't that doing the course won't guarantee anything. The statement was that people who take creative courses are less creative. Which, aside from being entirely anecdotal, is pretty insulting.
That is still not what a creative writing class will teach you. And still insulting. Can you point to any work that is "more creative" because the author didn't "follow a set of rules"? Follow up question: In none of my writing classes have I been taught "rules" other than the rule to say, write a 10 page play. What fucking rules do you think are being taught in these classes?
Hey! I'm expanding and explaining the theory behind someone else's posts, this is a discussion so get off your soap box and stop swearing at me!
Well, aren't most literary innovators lauded for breaking rules? Like, Cormac McCarthy with his dialogue, Cervantes for breaking the fourth wall, Nabakov's footnotes in Pale Fire, Truman Capote's nonfiction novels, the guys who started stream-of-consciousness writing, etc. I mean, was that your actual question? Times when authors didn't follow the rules and were therefore more creative? I feel like maybe I'm missing something...
One of my daughters spent some time working in recruitment. Those who came in with a degree weren't worth wasting time on. Because they believed that, because they'd got a degree, they should walk into a well-paid job. They seemed to struggle with the notion that being able to do the job was what an employer might want to pay for. The fact that they were well educated was irrelevant.
I don't think this is accurate. It depends on the professors. I would argue that a good class (a good workshop even more so) is very much exploration and discovery.
This is anecdotal rather than evidential, but the only novel I've read where the author was a bona fide Creative Writing Summa Cum Laude graduate was a ball of shit.
I came across this when I worked in administration. Graduates would send applications for my job to my boss but expected to be paid 10k more a year than me, just because they had a degree in business admin.
The allegation is that creative writing classes would have held them back from being creative. It's insulting in its simplicity, and backed up with anecdotal evidence. In short it's a stupid and unsupported statement leveled from a position of little authority. So in order to point out how stupid it was, I asked for someone to provide an example of a writter being less creative because of a class on creative writing.
Really? Because Steven King has a degree in English. Presumably he took creative writing classes and is therefore less creative because of it. So did Robin McKinley, and Anne McCaffrey, and Nora McDonald, and J K Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, Tom Clancy, Jim Butcher, Mercedes Lackey, and a goddamn host of others. Imagine how much better they would be if they never had a class on creative writing. Edited to Add: Oh and George RR Martin, JRR Tolkien, Robert Jordan, Douglass Adams, Terry Pratchett, and David Wong.
