This feels wrong to me. Opinions?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GuardianWynn, Jun 29, 2015.

  1. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    If you want a good example of someone going insane within a short time-span read this creepypasta http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/NoEnd_House it may give you an idea or two.
     
  2. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I will probably look at that tomorrow when I have more time.
    But the phrasing of your post misses the context I think. I mean I have reasons.
    I know why she goes insane
    I know who pushes insane
    I know how she acts
    I even know where it happens
    and when it happens

    The part I am lacking is sort of putting all the puzzle pieces together. There is like a missing story element. A keystone, waiting to bring it all together.

    Though I think @Lea`Brooks might have provided that piece. Not sure yet. Needs more thinking. :D
     
  3. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    Well the keystone you're looking for isn't easy to obtain. It's not technically possible for someone to be driven into insanity without them being tortured in some form, and for them to become a psycho killer is a whole entire other issue. This "god-like" character isn't really thinking this thing through is he/she. To me it would be more logical just to go free someone from a asylum who is already a psycho killer.
     
  4. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Watching her child die doesn't count t as torture?
     
  5. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    I would have to read your story to get a better sense of how her son was quote on quote "executed" because executions are usually planned for beforehand. Wouldn't the mother learn of her son's execution within a few days notice so she could somewhat brace herself?

    Truth be told it's your story and you're the only one that's going to understand what's right and what's wrong in it. I can try to help, but in the long run what you're doing right now is stalling. No offense. I mean I'm doing it right now to. I say I'm going to write a story, but then I waste my time by asking other people for help. What you should do is just go for it and then edit it later on if it doesn't work out. I don't blame you for wanting some help, but it's better just to go for it then just waiting for someone to come along and give you the answer.
     
  6. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Do you think anyone can truly brace them self for the death of there child? Especially a young child.

    Not sure I am stalling. I mean I think I have made a lot of progress. :D I actually wrote a book(30k) and got a beta reader. The review points out many good flaws. This topic is about the rewrite. :D Also I have got many useful posts back.

    I am not here expecting a user to appear and give me all the anwsers. Sometimes a user can ask the right question to help me see a useful anwser. Sometimes when I ask the question I find the answer. So I think this thread has done it's job well. :D
     
  7. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    @Lea`Brooks
    I think your comment helped me solve this problem or put me on the right track. Thank you.
     
  8. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

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    Meh, I still think you're stalling :p but if that's the case then everyone on this forum is stalling as well so it doesn't matter :confuzled:
     
  9. tanstaafl74

    tanstaafl74 Member

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    I actually like the idea, but it leaves me wondering; where does she go from there? Does she just stay insane for the rest of the story? Does she slowly get better? The challenge to that particular development would be where to take it. How to maintain suspense or interest once the character has reached that plateau.

    Something to think about.
     
  10. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Funny enough I do know where I am going with it.

    The idea is she dies while insane. Then in the afterlife. Guardians of the after life, named the Divine Animal kind of show her what she couldn't realize in life. Which restores her humanity. The final act is her trying to find a way to live on(in a sense. After life and all) with the memories of her previous life.

    The next challenge is how long to hold on her crazy years. To long would be boring I think but to short has a lot of problems too. Right?
     
  11. Red Herring

    Red Herring Member

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    I was reading through your post, and now your story just went batshit crazy. It's very interesting. My question to you would be, why does she need to have a breaking point in 50 years? Why does she need to have a breaking point at that moment at all?

    I liked your occam's razor idea; she becomes a monster the moment her son dies and she murders his killers. I personally would find it a lot harder, and would find it less believable as a reader, to have a breaking point 50 years after the incident that incited it. Maybe you could go the route of her being a monster after her first kill, and everything else is a snowballing of her madness.

    Also, this is just my personal opinion, I find using laughter as means to convey madness to be incredibly cliched. Perhaps you could find another way? I liked your idea of her not remembering her son. Maybe she has a picture of him that she carries with her; in once scene she acknowledges her son by name; in another scene she knows he's her son but doesn't remember his name; and in another she she is grasping at straws to remember who the child in the picture is and why she even has it.

    Perhaps she went so crazy that she'd forgot what her justification(death of her son) for her evil acts were; and now she just does them for gratification; having no justification for evil acts is madness, to me at least. I think this would be better and more subtle way to convey to the reader that she is just a murderer rather than someone with an evil but justified crusade.

    I don't know what you've written, so maybe I'm overstepping here with these ideas. If you feel your story needs the breaking point, or the 50 years; then you should by all means go ahead and do that. But perhaps you could brainstorm other options and see if they would improve or make more sense in the context of your story.

    Anyways, I hope I was of help to you. :)
     
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  12. tanstaafl74

    tanstaafl74 Member

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    That's exactly what I was thinking. It's a fine line to walk and will probably take a lot of trial and error to get right. I think it will be very fascinating though if done right.
     
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  13. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    I think this comes back to what Phil Zimbardo demonstrated with good and evil and the Standford Prison Experiment. In any give certain situation or circumstance someone can become evil. Which means in your story the character would have to be in the present experiencing extreme pressure and stress, like a pressure cooker ready to explode.

    Certainly the past history would be relevant, but not as much as the immediate experience. His choices or decisions would be based on what he thinks now in his belief system is right or wrong, good or evil.

    The question about your character: Is he caught in the past in his mind. Living in the injury, past memories, wanting revenge, pay back, doesn't give a crap about who he/she hurts? A psychopath/anti social/ narcissist? I think what would help you is if you gave your character a personality disorder of some sort and go off of what that type of person would do, and how they would think.
    Like for example: How does a narc act and behave towards their victim. I suppose I'm just giving you helpful tips I find easier for me since I have a degree in Human Services/social work.

    Good tools I find helpful creating characters:
    Meyer's Brigg's Personality Test
    People Code
    Color Code Personality

    With these elements you can get in depth of how a person would act and think.

    The past is relevant to a certain point, but the snapping point comes when they hit rock bottom. When someone's applying mental and emotional strain on their psyche from some area of their life. An authoritarian that has hunger for power, wants to be in control, and crush their prey at all costs. Other wise certain events have pushed them, like a death of a loved one, they're so emotionally attached, they can't let go. Maybe perhaps someone murdered their child or other violent acts towards someone. Something happen right now to make them react.

    You've got someone like Hannibal that can get in someones head. You've got a professor in the movie "Whiplash" who is trying to bring the best out in a student, but mentally, and emotionally abusive. In Mommy Dearest a mother who is evil to her child and mentally and emotionally abuses the child.
     
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  14. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Not sure what you would call it but I always figured the girl hee is sort of an abuse victim that became an abuser to hide from the pain.

    Also isn't witnessing her son die enough stress to crack her?

    I mean I don't think someone needs constant pressure to make them bad. I figured it is more like. Something snapped her bad. Now it will take something else to snap her good again. Does that make sense?
     
  15. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    It could be that way. I think it goes a bit deeper. Usually if someone is abused they either choose to act out externally against other people. Internally against self. Inflicting pain on someone else or inflicting pain on self. Example (Suicide, cutting, negative self talk, beating up self.) Allergic reaction to a toxic environment. Allergic reaction to toxic person or abusers. One will become submissive, walk on egg shells, avoid conflict, take the path of least resistance. Not say anything or do anything externally.

    The other route: Smash things, dress different, be rebellious and do everything the opposite of what is asked. Defiant and deviant. They will inflict pain emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically on anyone else externally. I don't think they have to snap to do that, it's just a natural reaction to being abused.

    Hide from pain would be avoiding emotions and feelings. Avoiding thinking about the hurt and pain, trying to block it out. Avoid dealing with traumatic events in the past. Avoiding places, persons, things that trigger abuse. They want to get away from pain and suffering at all costs. Which would motivate them to change and break free of the situation in a positive way. They could also change for the worse and become and alcoholic, drug addict, gamble, etc, rapist, murder, etc. I think the motive and intention then would be to seek revenge and pay back time. Not necessarily snapping.

    I see snapping as having extreme pressure: Like a person being in a cage, they have no way to escape the environment. Trapped, with not way out of the circumstances. Example: As in a girl who is ten. She can't leave the home. No resources financially, can't take care of herself, dependent, no one would believe her because her mother is a psychologist and her father is a police officer. They beat her every day with a whip, burn her, turn up loud music all the time just to annoy her, do things deliberately to make her feel uncomfortable. Emotionally and mentally verbally abuse her. Caller her names, tell her how disgusting and worthless she is, gas lighting the victim's thinking, doing things to manipulate thoughts, and telling her she's going crazy, somethings wrong with her. Not feeding her, not cleaning her, locking her up in the house, isolating from society, and then there comes a boiling point where she can't take it anymore, and snaps. She waits for her mother and father to go to bed, takes her fathers gun and shoots them fifty times in bed. Basically making her lose her sanity from being bullied and tortured in different ways.

    That's just the way I see it, but could be other ways. If you watch the movie Sybil you can see how she created different personalities after being abused. So really it depends on the character, whether it turns into some psychotic episode or there are multiple personalities, voices telling your character what to do. Are they strong enough in their mind to get past a psychotic episode? Schizophrenia is another possibility. There are endless scenario's, and disorders, and the way the mind can make choices. Like my real friend was shot by a gangster. He didn't see anything wrong with it, it was a belief system and mindset of being on the streets. He didn't snap, but deliberately stole a car, and wanted my friend out of the way and fired shots. He was perfectly sane and was more worried about street cred, and being cool. He wasn't hiding from the pain, but thought he was big bad and tough.

    Motives and Intentions are sometimes behind things. Say I want to kill my wife, because I love someone else and want the insurance money. It's hard to say what makes a person snap. The brain is really an interesting thing, and reading on murders they just have some kind of disorder or thinking pattern and mindset, and most of them have been abused, but act totally different.



    If you watch a few episodes of this show it might show you more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
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  16. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I think for the most part my ideas make sense. I think I was more confused on how to show them but since you seem interested. Let me give you more context. See if you think it works.

    She was raised on a farm. Her family asked much more of her than was fair. She took it in stride.

    When she grew up she got married and had one kid. They lived alone in the woods. Her husband began beating her.

    She took it in stride. Was very passive. Very submissive about it. Never really blaming him.

    He died. She began to realize how much happier she was without him. She moved to the outskirts of a town to raise her son.

    The town jeloious of her strength decided to try and kill her and her son, claiming her to be a demon. Her son died in front of her eyes.

    Enraged she killed the entire town.

    This is were it gets a bit tricky.

    She is approached by a man that plays with her while she is still emotionally unstable. He convinces her that the world is to blame and to destroy the evil within it.

    She begins killing for this man. All the while slowly losing more and more of herself to darkness.

    She begins to forget she had a son and begins to relish inflicting pain on others. Also becoming more sexual in nature. More self gratifying really. She would drink, do drugs. Anything to feel good.

    Pretty much it. Seem logical to you?

    The trick writing wise is how to show well in a book her moving from the woman heart broken over the death of her son to the psycho killer.

    Thanks for listening.
     
  17. Woof

    Woof Senior Member

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    There are two things that jump out at me from flicking through this thread:

    • Your protagonist never learnt how to say no, how to assert her own needs, until it gets to a critical point and she is pushed to react/overreact because the situation has become life-threatening and/or she cannot take any more. For me, this is definitely believable and could explain how she reacts, especially with her increased life-span. Having a look at some child-development care models might be interesting for you? e.g. https://www.uea.ac.uk/providingasecurebase/the-secure-base-model
    • In beginning to enjoy the killing, you could treat her as an addict. I have worked with gambling addicts and some of the behaviours mentioned remind me of that. There's a point, when you can see it's finally getting through to someone what they've done, how they are perpetuating the problem and they go one of two ways. Some people accept help, others make a conscious decision to return to the addiction because it's easier, because it allows them to stay in denial and feel a buzz, feel control etc. Any of this sound like your formerly powerless character?

    Just my thoughts, but you never know what will click or prompt something to mesh! It's difficult when you're grasping at the edges of something and can't quite pin it down. I remember struggling to make a character who'd suffered a catastrophic physical loss believable, until I finally dug out the right piece of my own experience to draw from and amplify.
     
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  18. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Ah yes. I think you have given me a good idea.
    So you think this plot line is good? Sometimes I doubt it and think I am writing crap. But all us writers have doubt.
    The real trick is going to be showing that slow change from killing in anger to killing in passion.
    do you think the plot line of her forgetting her son and relishing in the pain she causes others makes sense? I think it holds up but you would think someone that ws caused pain would avoid causing it in others but her circumstances are a tad unique lol
     
  19. Woof

    Woof Senior Member

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    The bit I find slightly implausible is that she kills the whole town in the first instance. Killing anyone who threatens or approaches/attacks her makes sense, but I don't think one town would ever be so wholly united that they would all move against her. I think it likely that there would be a few people who stayed out of it, and the odd one who would try to curry favour with her and/or manipulate her when the tides turned. Is your man one of these characters? It might be an interesting dynamic if both he and a few sympathetics survived?

    The key to the change, as you've noted, is who influences her whilst she's emotionally vulnerable. If she has no time to recoup/reflect then this man that reinforces only her negative, destructive impulses and her irrational generalisations will be what cements her mindset. I don't think she will forget her son readily though; he will be the primary reason she is angry and hurt enough to cause pain for a long while. Eventually though, the pain will have to change. People are not equipped to carry pain for that long, they're supposed to let go and if they can't, it warps and changes and can become hate or rage, for instance. Don't forget the impact chemical changes in the body during fighting, fear, pain etc can have on the mind also. The production of endorphins, for instance, with extreme physical exertion can be deemed comparable to using morphine.

    I think you just have to try it out. Take your character for a spin in a couple of unrelated situations and see how she reacts, just for character development. Have the old her meet the new her in a bar. Write 500 words of an alternate reality in which she is totally accepted for who she is. It may seem daft but hopefully it will add depth to your understanding of her and could unblock a few things. It helps me, anyway.
     
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  20. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    She was raised on a farm. Her family asked much more of her than was fair. She took it in stride.

    first part: The parents: Were they Authoritarian: Strict, Tough Love, Break the Will & Spirit of the child. Break them down.
    Authoritative: Disciplined and strict: But gave reasons why for disciplining, compassionate, empathetic, still expected to obedience.

    Authoritative would work because they didn't care how she felt emotionally and mentally. They just expected her to be obedient regardless of the situation and ignored her feelings.

    They could have also dismissed her, were dominate, and "You're seen not heard." So, she then would feel "It doesn't matter what I think or feel. Depressed and alone. Perhaps the mother was dominate and bossy and did the same thing to the father. The father was submissive and people pleased and went along with the father. Then this has a cause an effect on their daughter.

    When she grew up she got married and had one kid. They lived alone in the woods
    . Her husband began beating her. She married a dominant authoritarian man who basically treated her the same way, but was actually worse and was physically abusive and a narc who only cared about himself. When she wasn't obedient, she felt intimidated. Threatened. She couldn't be her true self, acted the part, and tried to people please, but nothing she did was perfect enough.
    He isolates her from friends and family. Controlling and Manipulative. "Do What I tell you to do or else." This is where addiction would fit in. Numb the feelings, self medicate, pretend this isn't happening.


    He died. She began to realize how much happier she was without him. She moved to the outskirts of a town to raise her son.

    This is a turning point. Grief: Anger, Bargaining, Denial, Acceptance, Depression
    New start on life. Moving to a new location. Since she's not trying to help herself, things get worse. I think what your saying is her strength is resilience or mental toughness, to a degree maybe so, but not enough to help herself or change and understand herself. She takes the self-destructive path and you want it to lead to where she harms people. Angry: Victim mentality. Karpman Drama Triangle: Play the victim, persecute, rescuer. So she goes and complains about her hang ups to someone. All the bad stuff that's happen to her. This other character would be the rescuer or someone that takes sides with her in her point of view. I'm a victim: I need to be rescued and saved from my grief, heartache, and depression. Please make it all better.

    The town jeloious of her strength decided to try and kill her and her son, claiming her to be a demon. Her son died in front of her eyes.


    This character here would be the persecutor: Think she is evil and bad. Wants to destroy and kill her for what ever motivation or ill intention and ill feelings they have towards her. More grief and despair. Loss and depression.

    She is approached by a man that plays with her while she is still emotionally unstable. He convinces her that the world is to blame and to destroy the evil within it.

    This character would actually be the rescuer: Which he gets inside her mind and manipulates her by brain washing her and getting her to believe what he wants her too. Chaos & Confusion in her thinking. Fear. Can't think straight. This is where she would hit rock bottom, and not take it anymore. She might be having voices tell her to kill someone, and battling with hallucinations, or the guy is gas lighting her. She thinks he's in love with her, but lying to her. Or He's not the person she thinks he is. He's stolen someone else's identity or acting like he's someone else. She finds out and it seems cruel and why would you do this? There's got to be some twist here that makes her chaotic and confused. Everything she thinks and believes is all wrong. She's questioning everything she's ever known about the world, life, and herself.

    Enraged she killed the entire town.

    Here she's the time bomb exploding. Every things built up: Now comes the effect the trail of abuse catching up with her. She is Angry enough to kill everyone and retaliate it.

    She begins killing for this man. All the while slowly losing more and more of herself to darkness.

    She begins to forget she had a son and begins to relish inflicting pain on others. Also becoming more sexual in nature. More self gratifying really. She would drink, do drugs. Anything to feel good.


    This fits here. She is stone cold, doesn't feel any compassion, empathy, and doesn't care who she hurts in the process. No feeling or emotion. The dark side. Sex, Drugs, and uses people, and drops them right afterwards. Uses them for her own gain.


    You have to remember cause and effect. One thing leads to the next. The cause of the event has an effect on what action she takes next. I had to switch the one around, because the psychotic is at the boiling point of all the causes building up over time. Like I said before extreme pressure. You have two deaths which is good in that direction. And two males that are abusive, and to start with she learned certain behaviors by the way her parents raised her. The way she was raised is what causes her to pick the men she does. So, she takes on one of the parents roles in relationships. She learned certain behavior and thinking patterns from parents.

    For example: Grandmother was emotional/mental abuser, alcoholic, and tortured mom as a child. Mom may not have taken on alcohol, but did take on the emotional and mental abuse, which she inflicted on main character. Grandfather was just like father and didn't do anything to stop the children from being abused. This is where she learns to be passive and take the abuse and thinks it's normal. This can be the way a family thinks about money, prejudice, discrimination, addictions, abuse, and many other things. The character doesn't know this herself, and unaware until someone tells her and makes her aware. She gets herself in bad relationships until she figures this out and unlearns and learns something new.

    I know you're not trying to achieve that, but just trying to help you understand how it would come together like that for any character. You act out what you learn whether it's positive or negative.
     
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  21. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    First on the killing the entire town thing. There is a long answer and a short anwer.
    Short anwser. Fantasy book that uses magic.
    Let me know if you want the long anwser :)
    Funny enough. I have written the scene you mention. The idea was that she died. And her humanity was being restored. A after life guardian in a sense pulls both sides of her out. So you get three. One arguing for death and destruction. The other against it. And the third being the real her hearing the arguments.

    Not sure exactly what you think I would discover from writing that scene though.
    Wow. Detailed response. Most of it is so nice and easy to understand I don't much feel a reason to respond. I do have a few questions though.

    For one it sound like you are complimenting me? So you think I am on the right track?

    You switched the line around having the character you called the rescuer arrive before her son died. So you think that character needs to arrive before? How come?

    Also you mentioned it like she would be super sad after her husband died. Which is true to a degree but I saw her actually becoming more happy. As she did all the work before. So the change was more good then anything. I see her realizing this fairly quickly. Does this seem weird to you?


    Thank you both for the nice replies. :D
     
  22. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    I think you are on the right track, just need to understand how things tie together in parts.

    Well you're trying to achieve she becomes psychotic and want to kill people. So the character has to arrive before she acts in murdering people. Her son would die first. Then she's at a point where the rescuer would walk in which would be the man that brain washes her and causes chaos and confusion inside her mind and the way she thinks and believes. At this point she's grieving over to deaths. The happiness comes from recognition this relationship was not healthy for me. I am relieved it's over with. At the same time she must have been in love with the man to some degree. Usually there is an emotional attachment. Even though you're abused you make this unhealthy attachment and will do whatever for any sign of what you believe is love although it's abuse. She would be starving for love and affection, or hungry for it because it's not given to her, just abuse.

    Whether it's healthy or unhealthy she still will grieve and go through the process so it is a painful experience to let go. At the same time be happy to move on with her life and have a fresh start.

    Why it may not work and be believable is because if you want her to be happy she would be making a change in her life for the positive. She would stop the behavior patterns and thinking patterns. It would be swayed in the direction of getting healthy, like going to a psychologist, work shop, talking to a minister, getting off alcohol, drugs, learning how to pick a healthy guy. So it points to the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve as a psychotic.

    I think you can show she's happy to be free and relieved and maybe thinks her life will turn for the better, but it doesn't turn out the way she would like it too, and assumes this new guy is different then her husband who has died. He may act like a nice guy and pretend he's something he's not, and then shift gears into the man that causes chaos and confusion in her mind and talks her into killing people.

    But I wouldn't elaborate to much on her happiness in between there, because I think the reader would get confused if you're trying to maker her psychotic. She might laugh because she's out of her mind, demented happiness, or madness. But not happiness in the sense of getting her life together and taking the positive road. I guess I'm thinking grief is a major loss and so that would bring her down and most people have trouble letting go of the person who died unless they truly hated the person with a passion. And they may just be relieved the person is gone.

    It's kind of a difficult transition, timing, and how long after his death she becomes happy, but then timing where she becomes to the point of harm.

    Why I say it would work with two people died, is because people get really pulled down when they lose things or have to detach from materialism, money, death of a loved one, loss of a job, loss of a home, and many things happen at once. It's kind of like an avalanche affect. So say, her husband died in February and three months later her son dies, the character who rescues her and walks in to her life at the same time he dies. She's vulnerable, easy to take advantage of, and easy to manipulate her emotions and feelings. He's a predator and looks for a victim to victimize, and after he spends time with her, she gets brain washed without being aware of it, and then he reveals he's not the person she believed he was, and this then makes her snap.

    Really it's just setting up events. Sex and alcohol starts some where in there or drug addiction and it gets worse through time.

    1. Abuse (Parents) (Mental & Emotional Abuse)
    2. Abuse (Husband) (Physical Abuse added)
    3. Death (Husband) (Grief)
    4. Death (Son) (Grief)
    5. Chaos & Confusion (Mind Control or Brain Washing)
    6. Kills (Snaps)
    7. Turns into Psychopath with no Empathy (Drugs/Sex/Alcohol) Empty and feels nothing for no one.

    You have enough there. Just have to figure out how it all ties in together to get the impact you want on the reader.
     
    Shenanigator likes this.
  23. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Yay! Right track.

    I think we may have had a few misunderstandings. Still not sure when you are saying the rescuer should arrive.

    Also in my original idea. She kills directly in response to her sons death. Like within a few minutes. So she didn't morn then decide to kill. It was a automantic response.

    Context with the husband. He died currently about 3 years before the sun. The idea here was kind of like this.

    He was beating her. She took it. She tried to remain happy. She slowly and slowly was finding that harder and harder. He dies. She is sad but begins to realize her life is better. She still stays as aloner. She still doesn't quite live for herself. She switched her efforts to her son. So when he is taken from her. She feels like she has nothing. After all over the previous years she had few contact with anyone else.

    Make sense?

    Did I forget something?
     
  24. Mattiemae

    Mattiemae Member

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    Okay the timing is three years which she's had time to grieve and reflect on things, and try to get her life in the right direction, but still gets into bad relationships. Grief is what your saying is what makes her snap. That would be in the context of Justice being served. Revenge and payback.

    Maybe this can give you some insight the guy was accused of doing what you're trying to achieve or similar effect. 35:07 they talk about him going to get gun and coming back right away.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  25. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    What do you mean she still gets into a bad relationship?
     

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