Is anyone here NOT writing a fantasy novel/series?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by knoxvicious, Jan 6, 2008.

  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    There's a lot of fantasy that isn't Tolkienesque.

    I agree that there's a good bit of fantasy that feels pretty derivative, with the D&D-style adventuring, etc.

    But lumping all fantasy into that classification is like lumping all romance into Harlequin-esque category romances (as recently discussed in another thread). Any time you have people who don't read in the genre telling people who do read in the genre what the genre is all about, there's a problem.

    So, really - if you don't read in the genre, you don't know what you're talking about. Which is fine. There's no requirement that writers be equally educated or equally enthusiastic about all genres. But when you don't know what you're talking about, you should probably spend more time listening, less time talking, and pretty much no time judging.

    ETA: This came out sounding a bit more harsh than I intended. I was thinking about rewriting, but I'm not really sure how to soften it without losing the general idea...

    Maybe I can just make it clear that I'm talking about myself, as well? I don't like hard scifi. But, really, I've hardly read any hard scifi, so maybe there's some that I would like. I should remind myself not to assume I don't like it when my experience with it is so narrow.
     
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  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I would add to this, through other discussions in which I have participated here in the forum and elsewhere, that there is an apparent tendency for "the stuff I don't like about Genre X" to become the definition for Genre X for many, and especially for those who have either only dabbled in the genre or don't have any real exposure to it. This was mentioned as well in the thread you cite concerning romance novels, where one particular style or even publishing house becomes synonymous with the entirety of the genre, never mind how representative (or not) it may be. We've discussed this phenomenon in other threads concerning Magic Realism, where members tend to not classify it as a flavor of fantasy, and then those same members gripe about Fantasy being all elves, dwarves, quests, etc. I don't get this at all. People kvetch that Fantasy only has {fill in the gripe} and then when you point out other things that the genre can most certainly be, the answer is, "Well, I don't think of that as Fantasy". WTF? o_O
     
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  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yeah, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy! If you define a genre only in terms of things you don't like, then, surprise! You don't like the genre! And since you don't like the genre, if there is something you like, it clearly can't be part of the genre. Kinda circular.
     
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  4. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    Anyone who creates something is using the tools that have been made by others before them. A fantasy writer will weave together elements of fantasy stories they've read, but an artist will also borrow from other artists within their same style. An architect doesn't re-invent architecture with each new building, but instead takes a well-established body of knowledge and improves upon it. He/she creates a new building that includes elements of other buildings before it, but has its own unique style and design. This is essential to creating anything: by inventing something, designing something, or writing something, you are improving on what others have done before.
     
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  5. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    I understand what you're saying but I didn't mean to lump all fantasy in under the Tolkien banner; just that a good chunk of fantasy writers find writing by being fans of established properties. It doesn't make much odds which property they are into and of course there are very many great fantasy authors out there but fans (and cynical people marketing to fans) tend to stick pretty close to home at least to begin with. That's really all I was trying to say. It's just as true in other genres but with books set in a more realistic world the comparisons are much less immediate. I mean, when we see the arrogant elves, the greedy dwarves, the aloof mages, the plucky destined hero; that's stuff that stands out like a flare.
     
  6. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    I am going to disagree. I love research and am working on a fantasy piece set in the Iron Age. It's accurate to the point of bordering on historical fiction, but basically still fantasy because I'm working with non-literate ancient cultures. In imagining daily life and conflicts archeology can only go so far.

    It's the same for people interested in writing about galaxy's far, far away. You'd be surprised how much research goes into some of those books. And I bet a lot of those authors are astronomers and have star charts on their office walls.

    I would argue that realistic fiction requires less research because it's set in periods and situations the author is already familiar with. After all, I already know how to use a microwave and how far it is from Spokane to Boise, etc.

    This is true. I don't like romances, so I don't read them. I don't like Christian fiction, so I don't read that either. Ditto for westerns. The difference is that you don't see a lot of threads bashing Christian fiction or Westerns. (Lots of threads bashing romance though.)

    There are genres I don't like, but I don't start threads bashing it either. I tend to just ignore those genres and any associated threads. SO why do so many people feel compelled to bash fantasy and not the other genres?


    Allow me to cry foul! To be really unique writes must create something totally original, starting with the language . . . writers must not write in English or any other presently or previously existing language. Their story must be completely new and original and the language they write in must be completely new and original!

    Oh never mind . . . Someone will claim that's just being Tolkienesque.
     
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  7. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I admit that I've read more science fiction than fantasy, but most of the fantasy I've read does not contain any elves, dwarves, etc. I think this may just be a stereotype, and something that's common among very new authors who are still learning to write, so can be excused for writing stuff that isn't too original.

    It's very easy to write fiction related to a field that you're trained in. As an engineer, I could write cyberpunk with very little research, relatively speaking, although would have much more difficulty writing about history. A historian could probably write some decent historical fiction about a period they are familiar with, with only research to confirm things and fill in details. I guess what I'm getting at is that the amount of research you need to do depends on how much you already know about the subject. If you want to write about a good variety of things though, you'll doubtlessly end up venturing outside your area of expertise.

    I like it! I've always wanted to write a novel in a fictional language! :D
     
  8. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    But to a lot of people (both readers and writers) the elves, dwarves, magic, etc define the fantasy genre. That doesn't mean that's all there is but it'd be pretty dishonest to say that these aren't commonly used features of fantasy. Now that doesn't reflect at all on the quality of writing and characters but these fantastical elements are things that stand out to us very clearly and that's why there's the constant complaint that fantasy is very samey. Not because the books actually are similar in theme or even in quality; just that the most prominent features of a world are those that make it different from ours and thus even if it's totally tangential to the plot it's hard not to roll your eyes at yet another 'kinda sorta dark ages Europe but with magic and stuff' setting. And like I said, these are sins shared by all genres but those similarities don't immediately stand out to us in the same way. We'll let the tall, dark handsome stranger off for being a stereotype because, well, tall dark handsome people exist and we'll give them a chance to be something different.
     
  9. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I definitely wouldn't define fantasy in terms of elves. A fantasy novel is a novel that employs very heavy world-building, essentially. Such that the world it's set in is distinctly different from our own. Elves can be a part of that, but not necessarily. Most fantasy novels probably don't have any elves in them.

    What genre do you prefer to read? Your standards seem to be a bit high. Some works are truly unique, in that they challenge all of the notions that people have about a genre, but you can't expect that to be the case for every novel. A writer has to write a dozen novels before they can get to that level of skill. To quote (or possibly misquote) Picasso, you have to learn the rules before you can break them.
     
  10. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    That's an extremely broad definition of fantasy though; one in which almost any book could reasonably be placed. I mean Finnigans Wake creates a world substantially at odds with our own but that doesn't make it fantasy. Equally any historical novel of any period outside living memory would be put into fantasy too; that this setting actually existed makes little difference to the reader if this is the first they are hearing of it.

    And I suppose that's part of the problem. Fantasy is not a well defined genre at all. In a literal sense ANY work of fiction is a fantasy. Like I say, I think it's disingenuous to say that seriously common elements of fantasy like magic are not representative of the whole genre. It's technically true and there is more than just that but it's also incredibly common in more generic fantasy books of which there is a vast amount of. To try and talk about both the bulk of typical fantasy (elves and all) as well as fringe books that could also reasonably be called historical or political at the same time is just not something that'll get you anywhere. Of course there are exceptions. Of course. But while you can't judge those exceptions but the crappier, more generic books you can't judge the crappier, more generic books by the exceptions who do something different.

    For all this; I don't think it's bad that fantasy (or at least what I'd define as fantasy) is often quite samey. I'm not at all saying that books MUST be so original and amazing in their setting. There's nothing wrong with using a generic setting if you're telling a more specific, personal story where the setting is just background. Using a generic fantasy world means your reader will fill in the blanks while you can get on with telling the story you care about. It's not a bad thing and I'm not saying any book is bad just because of it's setting. I'm just saying that the 'standard fantasy setting' (which is the term used by TVTropes to describe what I'm talking about) is a real thing that's often used and thus is often a point of criticism. That doesn't make it bad.
     
  11. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    Fantasy is a broad genre though. :p To say a book is a Fantasy novel doesn't really mean much. Instead, it's more useful to consider it as part of a sub-genre like Epic Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, etc.

    But I do agree that the "Tolkien-like" world is a thing, but I don't think it's as common as you say, and sites like TV-Tropes have an interest in over-exaggerating the pervasiveness of cliches. New authors have to start somewhere though, and if it's with cliches, that's fine. Most of the master-pieces in the fantasy genre, which are also the best-sellers, have a unique world of their own that looks nothing like Tolkien.
     
  12. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Bolding mine,

    There's the self-fulfilling prophecy popping up! What's fantasy, to you? It's that "samey" genre with elves and whatever. So as soon as something pops up that doesn't meet your definition, rather than changing your definition you decide it isn't really fantasy.

    I just checked the Amazon top sellers list in Fantasy (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16190/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_3&tag=writingfor07a-20) I didn't delve beyond looking at the covers, but I don't think there's a single Tolkien-style book in the top twenty.

    So maybe what you think of as Fantasy isn't what the rest of the world thinks of as Fantasy?
     
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  13. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    My personal definition of fantasy is starting with all the gazillions of variables that make up our reality, and then reducing them. Speculative, or science fiction, hypothesizes (intelligently) what would happen if some variable that, so far as we know could be changed, was changed. Historical and general fiction tells fictional accounts without offending all the variables that make up history/our current reality.

    If I write a fictional story that takes place in Ancient Rome, but respect the major details of the time, I am writing historical fiction. If I write a story that takes place in today, and respect the rules of today, but then I say, what if tomorrow a new deadly bacteria evolves, I am writing speculative fiction. If I write a story that takes place whenever, but I have the ability to shapechange, and I have not offered an explanation as to how, I have just, with the wave of a hand, decided to reduce my variables of reality (such as physics and biology) and have now turned to fantasy.

    Therefore, since fantasy, by definition, is generally a reductive art, I would argue in most cases it requires less imagination, not more, at least in terms of world building. Writing a world with impossible creatures does not require more imagination, but in fact less, unless you can provide a satisfactory explanation as to how we can go from our reality (at any time point) to impossible creatures, without breaking the rules, as we know them, of existence.

    There are exceptions. Mervyn Peake creates Gormenghast brick by brick. Yes, Gormenghast exists virtually in a vacuum, but the world of the novel itself is both not real yet not impossible, and therefore, not as reductive. Most fantasy novels I have read don't do this.
     
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  14. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Fantasy being reductive. I see it more like this: an author picks a jumping off point, which is anchored somewhere in reality. For LOTR, that would be medieval Europe. For Harry Potter, that would be modern times. Then, the author begins to change things to make their world more unique. Lord of the Rings changes a lot: the settings, races, and even languages are all different, although many elements are borrowed from the real world, but changed and rearranged. Elves, for example, were not Tolkien's invention. But he did change them substantially from their mythic roots. Some fiction involves less changes, though. Harry Potter takes the modern world and uses it as a jumping off point, but nations, geography, and many elements of society are essentially the same as the real one, but with many changes.

    So, the more things you change from your starting point, the more creativity is required. Writing historical fiction only requires changing people: inserting fictional characters into real events. Writing Fantasy requires inserting fictional places, characters, and events in place of real ones, while still maintaining some real things (such as human nature). So, I'd say Fantasy requires more creativity than Historical Fiction, for example (although, both require a good deal of it).
     
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  15. Man in the Box

    Man in the Box Active Member

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    It can get really annoying because Tolkien didn't do a very good job of disguising his influences from Norse mythology, so much that whenever we think of Norse creatures, the first thing that comes to mind is Tolkien's interpretation of them.

    The same happens in vampire genre with Bram Stoker and Anne Rice being so much influential that their works mix themselves with the real lore.
     
  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Just did an interesting check on our Novels section on this forum. While I haven't read each selection thoroughly, it looks as if at least 19 of the 35 on offer are Fantasy. Only a few of them clearly are not. Some of the non-fantasy offerings that I didn't count as straight Fantasy do seem to straddle fantasy/magic realism/sci fi. So that's more than half of our offerings here on the forum that are Fantasy, and a few others that could probably be termed that.

    It does seem to be a genre that the majority of people on the forum are writing. If you compare that percentage to the percentage of Fantasy books on bookshelves in bookshops, I think you'll find our forum does have more than it's 'fair share' of fantasy writers. Nothing wrong with that, but it's interesting to note.
     
  17. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I think we're getting too sensitive here. If the mad wolf wrote a fantasy adventure, I can guarantee you it would be very creative (whether anyone could understand it is a different issue ).
    You're either an imaginative writer or you're not, independent of your genre.

    If we ignore the writer, and focus on the genre and its inherent qualities, fantasy requires less creativity in order to be qualified as fantasy. Making up details does not necessarily require imagination. Making up intelligent details requires imagination.

    For example, if I write a story where I suddenly grow wings and fly, without explanation (fantasy)that's really not any more imaginative than a run of the mill police story. If however I can give you a plausible scientific explanation as to how I can fly (that's science fiction) now I am being imaginative. The former version doesn't mean I'm not going to do creative things with my story, but the fantasy elements itself- the magical growing of the wings and the flying - are unimaginative.
     
  18. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    @123456789
    I hope there's more to intelligent design than scientific explanation.
    Fantasy can be logical and intelligently written without having to be scientific.

    But I think that's where the two genres differ in their use.
    Sci-fi is good for explaining possibilities through narrative as it deals with very real theories and science.
    Fantasy is more for exploring culture and people, as the setting is then a sandbox to create ideal conditions for so and so.
     
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  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    No, if you want to alter reality, you need to do it scientifically, or by modern standards, you are not doing it intelligently.

    I'm glad you helped me get to the heart of it.

    I want to say I am using science in the broadest sense, including sociology, anthroplogy, and even history.
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No, this is only true of science fiction. For fantasy, your world just has to be internally logical and consistent.
     
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  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    We've had this argument many times
     
  22. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    Why does it have to be scientific?
    Does it really make a difference whether the world in of itself is entirely plausible?
    What matters is the issues and people presented. The setting is just a backdrop.
     
  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes, but since you aren't very familiar with the fantasy genre you continue to labor under a whole slew of misconceptions.
     
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  24. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    Just an interesting thing that was on my mind as I read through this and no don't worry I'm not debating on why fantasy is great or anything. I do quite love all genres though but that's besides the point. But you say reality needs to be altered scientifically.

    But that sounds more sci-fi.

    Not counting urban fantasy or magical realism but fantasy takes place off world or in a different reality. I suppose one could make the argument that something in a universe so radically different then ours doesn't need to obey the science we understand exactly.

    Not if their world has a rules of physics.

    Which isn't to far fetched.

    I'm no expert in the science field but if there are other say 'universes' out there, speaking loosely um could they not have different rules then ours or would all of them obey the laws of thermodynamics and the science we know more or less know it as.

    Now with that said.
    I think a story is in order where someone (from our world) is teleported to a fantasy universe and they just can't exist cause the fundamental laws of reality work different thus making them turn to goo.

    Someone science-y correct me here! How plausible is all that?
     
  25. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I have read:
    Lord of the rings
    Shannarah
    Dragonlance
    Gormenghast
    Last Unicorn
    Wheel of time
    Song of ice and fire
    Patrick rothfuss
    Thomas covenant
    Harry potter(to study)
    The black company (or something like that)
    And lots of other crap I can't even remember.
     

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