Gardeners vs. architects

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by DefinitelyMaybe, Oct 12, 2015.

  1. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Took a quick look inside and downloaded it, though I couldn't find Discovery in the free read section. Didn't mean to come across as a know-it-all, but will let you know if I find something interesting, good or bad


    I am hard to get really annoyed!
     
  2. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Tenderizer, downloaded the anthology and stayed up till 1AM reading the first three or four. Great stuff! Thanks for the lead.

    What a thought, first generation black power reaching Rome before the fall, what a game changer that would have been to the course of history.

    My story actually followed, I think, the same path out of China, Kashgar through the Irkeshtam Pass to the Alay Valley in Kyrgyzstan, down pastAlexandria on the Oxus (Amu Darya), on the border between Tajikistan and Kunduz province in Afghanistan.
     
  3. Morgan Stelbas

    Morgan Stelbas Active Member

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    I was definitely a "gardener" as a kid, just started writing and then the ideas came. This was true even into my twenties.

    But after an eight year hiatus of not writing a single thing creatively (I can hear the tsssk's from some of you, but it's what happened), I woke up one morning with an idea, and decided that I should plot out the story before writing it. I still found that while I was writing it, my character development still grew on their own, the "gardener" in me was still there, although I had a plan.

    After I finished the story, (it took me three weeks of every ounce of spare time writing, because I couldn't get the story out of my mind fast enough), I decided to look online about publishing.

    Then that lead to research about how to write a good story. Then I learned about how some authors write outlines, and I realized that's what I had done without knowing it. Then I eventually came onto this forum. So I am still learning a lot about the skills needed in writing and adjusting my story with the things I've learned and the things I'm still learning.

    So maybe that means I'm naturally a gardener with architect tendencies? I have no idea. I just know I'm not 100% one or the other. I personally think very few people are.
     
  4. appledotte

    appledotte New Member

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    I definitely discovery write short stories. I currently have a rough outline for my book, but it is still more of a discovery writing process, the outline is really just a few words to give me a general context as the physical structure and organization of my book is a bit all over the place. The outline helps me keep the tone I am aiming for more in mind.
     
  5. Toomanypens

    Toomanypens Member

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    I'm a combo of both, I'm a brick from the house in the garden.
    Meaning nothing happens at all :p

    JK
     
  6. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    First I develop an outline, sometimes more rough than others (i.e. architect). Then I decide which scene needs to be written in terms of character development and start to write. During writing things happen which may or may not point in the direction of the outline (i.e. gardener). If not, I have to adjust the outline (i.e. architect again)

    Next day I go back for edit (i.e. pruning), and then look at what is missing (i.e. architect), and the whole circle starts again for the next scene. You get the idea :D

    Involves a whole lot of sitting around and staring into nothing or at whatever is in the way, when my head runs down different paths the story could evolve. But the final choices are made by the characters themselves during writing them *sigh*
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'm new to this thread, but hey. I had to laugh while reading this post. It's almost EXACTLY how my own story started. With an idea like that. So many ranchers lost their shirts (and their ranches) during the Big Die-Up winter that happened in 1886-87 in Montana. But some of them survived ...some of these ranches survive to this day. So what did they do differently? Were they just lucky, or did they anticipate the problem and make allowances for a bad winter, understood the need to provide feed and shelter for their animals, etc? What kind of people look ahead long term, rather than just skip along hoping for the best short-term?

    That's what I started with.

    I ended with a story about twin brothers from Kansas, a major split between them that can't be healed, a marriage that impacts on one of them and demands difficult choices and creates lasting consequences ...and I never quite made it to the winter of 1886-87! But there you go. I did deal with my original idea, though, and the rancher in question is doing the preparation he'll need to make in order to survive, because he's smart and thinks ahead. But the story went its own way, and the research I did was on a need-to-know basis, and turned up lots of stuff I didn't know, and also reinforced stuff I did know, but couldn't document. Your process and mine sound exactly the same!

    Architect? Not at all. But my next book is a direct sequel to the first (which is a stand-alone, not a series), so there is architecture in place at the start. And I do have a clear idea where the story is going. So not much pantsing at all. It will be interesting to see if I can work both ways.
     
  8. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks for the compliment, Jannert! I happen to enjoy your posts as well. How about posting the title so I can download it, or message me if you prefer? I always like to see other writers who follow our eclectic path.

    I like to say that I didn't write this story, I just took dictation from my characters! Even the ending did not work out at all like I thought it might when I sat down to write it: I knew there would be some revelation that the Chinese emperor had been impressed with their sense of honor, though he had condemned them all to death for showing it. I did not know that Senator Galba, the lead, would face political problems with his fellow Senators demanding he refund the government's share of funding for his ships, since his meeting with their Emperor was an abject failure. This of course would turn his unexpected financial windfall into a catastrophe. And outside in the Forum, the crowd is cheering "Jason and the new Argonauts."

    We did follow almost an identical course in writing our stories. I already knew a lot about Rome, but China intimidated me. The China research was done on the fly, and Bactria (Afghanistan) was a total surprise. Why I did not know, and most people do not, is that the Eurasian landmass @100AD was globalized in a way that did not reemerge until the 20th century. It was possible to travel from the Atlantic coast of Spain to the Pacific coast of China and never leave the bounds of civilization: Rome, Parthia (Iran/Iraq), Bactria (Afghanistan, N. Pakistan, Tajikistan and western China) and Han China. Unfortunately, globalization brings new diseases, and something, perhaps smallpox, perhaps from Borneo (yes, they went there too) emerged in 160 AD and laid waste to all those populations for the next 50 years. All the eastern empires fell in the next 25-50 years, and Rome staggered on, its economy in tatters and military crippled, until collapsing 250 years later. Rome's 100AD revenue was based on 2.5% internal sales tax, and a 25% tariff on all foreign imports, and the Indian Ocean trade, @$400M at today's gold rate, funded a significant chunk of the government with very little admin overhead... when that collapsed, they had to tax their citizens. ("Rome and the Distant East" is the source)

    "The Eagle and the Dragon" just got its first very favorable review by a professional editor, with a more in-depth review to follow ($$$). Started the cover, Ptolemy's world map @100AD, with their sea route to his wholly notional Chinese side of the continent. The 12th Legion's eagle standard leans on the left, a Chinese dragon on a staff on the right with a yellow banner with "Western Harmony" in traditional Chinese script... my fictional banner used by the Gan Ying expedition.
     
  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I'm now thinking of "Si Gua"... Watermelon. I'm so sorry!!! :cry:

    [​IMG]

    Could still be a flower though

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Adenosine Triphosphate

    Adenosine Triphosphate Member Contributor

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    I'm a gardener naturally, but that makes it hard for me to keep track of anything, so I'm trying to become an architect instead.
     
  11. The Mad Regent

    The Mad Regent Senior Member

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    I only had to watch a few minutes of that video to realize I come under the gardener category.

    Though, I like to think of the process more as a road trip. You know where you're starting, and you know where you're heading, but everything in between is yet to happen. During the road trip, you could think about places to visit along the way, or experience some kind of situation, especially if you're traveling with others whose personalities vary. But in the writing sense, this would be the equivalent of jotting down ideas, or having your characters drag you into situations you didn't originally consider.

    As fun and cool as it is to create and plan everything in detail, I find that it's hard to keep within them boundaries, and it's like decorating a room and realizing you forget some important tool or material half way through, so you try to improvise and then it looks all wrong.
     
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  12. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    This is not an excuse! :D

    These are two different coins in my opinion. I am also a fellow pantser who flies by the seat of my trousers sometimes but keeping track of what you are supposed to be doing has nothing to do with letting your subconscious write and drop you hints. Even gardeners chooe which flowers they plant and have to water them, look for snails, and occassionally prune a runaway rose ;)

    More practically: how about writing a shorthand blow by blow of all you need to be aware of down the storyline after each scene? This helps me on and off..
     
  13. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    Maybe we can all just agree to be topiarists. They're sort of like architects for plants. It's the best of both worlds.
     
  14. 33percent

    33percent Active Member

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    I have to admit, I am more a discover writer or Gardner. I tried to do outlining but felt it constricted more of my creativity and imagination. I just write with the flow. I do have a simple outline in the head as like watching a movie. One scene to the other, from start to finish. I pretty much wrote two books and tying up the first book which I'm halfway finished. Did I plan for it, no but hopefully it will turn out for the best.
     
  15. Teladan

    Teladan Contributor Contributor

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    I remember watching this years ago. Takes me back. Definitely a hybrid. I feel that too much planning can restrict my writing and I will only go so far as to write a summary of the narrative and outline the chapters in bullet points. Too much planning takes the fun out of writing and lessens one's ability to discover the characters as one writes.
     
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  16. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Agreed. I think Sanderson does a brilliant job here of setting up the two different, absolute approaches. But in reality it's more of a spectrum, with a *lot* of overlap. I myself am somewhere in the middle, between gardener and architect (pantser and plotter, whatever you prefer).
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  17. Teladan

    Teladan Contributor Contributor

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    I'm in the middle of planning a new story right now and it just seems utterly unnatural to plot each chapter with anymore than a few bullet points. I need to explore the characters and let my subconscious discover the story as I go. I wish I could plan everything to save time figuring out what needs to be done in regard to character actions and story movement, but I can't just think of everything the story will contain off the top of my head before getting into the first draft. That seems like madness to me.
     
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  18. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Just a half-baked thought: in terms of storytelling (whether it be movies, video games, novels), there seem to be two types of finished product. One is very paint-by-numbers, and the other isn't.

    Both sell really well. But I find myself enjoying the latter category far more often.
     
  19. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    My outline is the "first draft" in terms of discovering who my characters are and what they want :)

    The spectrum doesn't go from 100% planners at one end to 100% discovery writers at the other, the spectrum goes from 100% discovery planners to 100% discovery pantsers ;)
     
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  20. Teladan

    Teladan Contributor Contributor

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    Interesting. So you essentially just jump straight into writing? I could see how that'd be fun, but does that not present challenges such as how well your story will flow and whether or not plots will end up connecting, etc?
     
  21. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    You're right, my post was ambiguous. What I was trying to say was that I outline, but that outliners get the same sense of discovery from our outlines that non-outliners get from their first drafts :)
     
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  22. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think this is always true. I would be a true Gardner, according to this guy. And I would say that story structure is one of my best writing skills. It's just something that comes natural to me and I imagine that's true of other writers like me.

    Jumping right into the writing is how I've always done it. Writing itself is challenging. I just do the things that make the process as easy as it can be for me.
     
  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You're mostly working in short stories, though, and I think they're easier to structure without extensive planning. I'm not saying it's impossible to have a tight structure on the first draft of a "gardener" novel, but I think it's significantly more difficult than for a short story.
     
  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think writing so many short stories with the Gardner approach was great prep work for the novel when it comes to structure. I tried to do some sort of outline a few times for my novel. It never worked. It slowed me down and everything was just wrong. I'm just not a planner. But I don't think you have to be a planner to have a solid structure. I can't really say how it works for me, but it does. Maybe being an avid reader has just engrained story structure into my brain somehow.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But you haven't completed a novel yet, have you? I'm not sure you can be confident that you've got a well-structured novel until you've completed the novel...
     

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