Cliché? Risqué? Is that all you have to say? My choice of words not imaginative? My tone of voice too conservative? You think I'm lacking skill? Of me, you've had your fill? Well, I'm far from finished yet The most boring that you've met? Cliché! Hooray! I hope you're here to stay!
lol Love it! True story: I once got mixed up and said 'brightest tool in the shed' and everyone at my job rolled. Then also there's a character in Boon Dock Saints (film) that does this (incorrectly mixing cliches) all through the film, and it's hilarious.
Cliches are the tool of the lazy, the incompetent, and the inexperienced.[/QUOTE] Bob Dylan has used the cliche extensively in his lyrics. The power of cliche is that it describes ideas and images so vividly and memorably that they become commonly understood. Dylan uses this common understanding to set up his original lines and give them power and meaning. Cliche is in many ways just the over use of perfected language. Do better than "between a rock and a hard place." I think that scenes and situations and plot concepts could be considered trite but not as cliche.
This is one of those things that is difficult to judge in the abstract. Good writers can and do make cliches work for them. The only question is whether any given use works or not.
Yes, I get what you are saying. I guess The Wire examples above prove they can be done well. But I swear, lol, anytime I see the 'cop gets chewed out' routine it just totally breaks me out of suspension of disbelief. :/
But this is why I'll never understand the circle jerk of talking about cliches, tropes, or anything else of the nature. In the end we can all maybe, probably agree the 'cop gets chewed out' routine is done a lot, but, it's a personal reaction of whether it's appropriate, done well, or just enjoyed. So is cliche a personal experience or a hard definition? 21 Jump Street, The Other Guys, and Cop Out were three buddy cop movies. 21 Jump Street is hilariously stupid, The Other Guys is a cinematic masterpiece, Cop Out is terrible. They all use cliches, except the story, the dialogue, and the chemistry of the main characters determines success. And then, what if I've never seen a movie or read a story involving 'cop gets chewed out,' and the very first time I do I think, man, he better not screw up again or his life is going to suck! When I start describing that reaction to people, are they going to explain to me how overused that situation is, how unoriginal the author is, how I would understand if I'd spent more time reading that genre? Should that affect how much I enjoyed it?
You make great points. I feel ya. You're tired of seeing cliche threads! I thought my thread was a bit different, because I did a search and saw people were mentioning the language aspect. But nonetheless it's still a valid thing to ponder (for me; I speak for myself here) if one is trying to find a way to write better, more original. Also I note the three examples you cited are comedies, maybe parodies, but I was referring to works attempting to be more realistic. But, I get your point. I do. It's all subjective based on the person's past viewings. But I think that applies more to viewers than to writers attempting to write in a certain genre.
I think there's something in that. The first time Johann Cruyff did a Cruyff turn it was magic. Now, it's commonplace, hell, even I can do it. But if you've never seen it before, it's magic again. To a certain extent, the more well-read the reader, the more sophisticated the writing needs to be to trigger that Wow! reaction.
I think you came up with a good word right there to describe it: shopworn. The best I can come up with other than that would be hackneyed (which I think is where we get the word 'hack' to describe an unimaginative writer). And I have to agree with you. It's why I stopped reading novels (and watching shows) where the main character is a cop. You can pretty much set your watch at the beginning and predict when the captain opens his desk drawer and says, "You badge and your gun... now." Or espionage/political dramas in which someone says, "Oh, crap! He's not after <fill in the blank>! He's gonna kill the president!"
I try to say trope when I mean trope and cliché where I mean cliché and something-I'm-bored-of when I mean something-I'm-bored-of. But I'll sometimes work out which one the OP really means and go with that. I find people most often say "cliché" when they mean "something I'm bored of".
@Wreybies Scarlote Witch, with a power somewhat akin to telepathy, is able to feel her twin brother Quicksilver die. I give that a pass.
Yeah, agreed, but it doesn't cover for all the normal mortal twins we see on TV and film who feel their twin die through the Twin-Link.
I'm not sure I understand your point. I'd think whether something is overused, is going to be subjective to writers too. I mean maybe some writers are unimaginative enough that they use tropes they themselves consider overused, often if they're using a trope, they probably don't consider it overused. There's elements of my stories I'm not that attached too and am happy to try and change them to something more unusual. But I've seen people say that portal fantasy is cliche. (I.e a character enters the fantasy world from our world) I know it can be done in a terrible Mary Sue sort of way, but personally I love reading good portal fantasies and I love writing them too, so to me they're not overused. How much should we make concessions to what others think is cliched/overused?
In my opinion, none. So the twin-link thing makes me roll my eyes. So what? Others may not care. Others may not have seen it/read it often enough to note. Actual twins probably care more than you or I. Some may feel that yes, the link is REAL, so they love it. Too many variables to let it stop anyone from writing what they write. Heck, in the HBO show The Leftovers, there's a magical negro (arguably a cliché) that the show goes meta on and notes his presence as a magical negro and comments on the racist aspect of his trope presence. It's spirally and loopy. I genuinely do think we (the we who write) are going through a phase right now of being preoccupied with the idea of cliché. I've got my theories as to why that should be happening - which I'll keep to myself - but it's definitely a thing I'm noticing here in the forum that started sometime last year.
True. So true. I think what you say here references the different developmental stages a writer passes through. I still remember the butt-rippings I got on the screenplay boards when I posted some of my early pages, lol. So, exactly. What is cliche to me now wasn't at all, maybe ten years ago. So yes it's objective. Hmmm. How much... concessions? That, is exactly what I'm trying to figure out currently. For my own writing I gotta say I can't have a clear conscience about using something that already feels overused to me even at the point when I am typing it. So for me, the burden is self-imposed to try to amp up my creativity to come up with a different way to present that same idea/situation, which hopefully will (as a byproduct) improve the quality of the manuscript. We are discussing tropes, but when I looked that up it didn't seem to fit what my OP was about. But, maybe it does? If so, I apologize for starting another redundant thread; I thought I had posted something new, a 'twist' on the understanding of cliche. (I try not to start repetitive threads...
You can't blame people for grinding their teeth when they get angry. It's like rolling your eyes when you hear something stupid. That's not an idea, that's just a natural reaction to emotions. It's a short physical reaction, that's it. How does that rank together with overused story ideas and stereotypes? Also I know my heart skips a beat when I am in a situation of shock. Why should it be different for my characters? Your heart skipping a beat has nothing to do with personality, so I don't see your point. If you consider those things a sign of incompetence then please don't work in a profession that requires reading or editing.
Interesting, interesting. I'd love to hear it someday. For me it started with my mentor years ago, because he rides this hard every day. Major pet peeve, lol. But beyond that I also have become more aware of monitoring myself more over the years, as I've improved it automatically leads to growing more aware. (off to read that thread...)
My heart skipped a beat, reading this thread. Better ask my GP about that. I'm not sure whether I'm Arthur or Martha these days. Delay the transgender op? I'm at sixes and sevens recently! Out of ten, that's not bad. Give me a break! Which bone would you like me to fracture? With all due respect, I have no respect for you. At the end of the day, the sun goes down. When all's said and done, it's finished. If you want my opinion. But I don't.
I usually mean cliché even if it seems like I should be saying trope. But I don't want to slur tropes cause they are fine it's only when they become cliché that they're frustrating. A P.I. is a trope, a prisoner is a trope, an mc in a romance is a trope. Everything is a trope - it's all the little dodads and details that are going to make the trope special or a rehash. But does it matter? Probably not. I personally cannot stand the 'spicy' bff cliché in romances. The buttinsky who is always telling the mc to get laid. But a lot of readers love this character so in the end one opinion doesn't matter. In fact if I spot this character while I'm critiquing I just go along for the ride. I think worst though it when people try to 'fix' things by going opposites. And that usually makes the problem worse because it's revealing what makes the cliché - not the type - but the details. If the details, and conversation and the reactions are the same than it doesn't matter if your character is a batwinged cat or your antagonist is a super-intelligent orange. Their novelties won't separate them from sounding & behaving like last years vampire or this years werewolf.
Se7en stuck out to me because it DIDN'T follow this norm. You think it's going to be another "old cop with new young partner" movie and it goes nowhere near that. Last Action Hero did a good job to parody the screaming captain/renegade cop motif.
I also agree that it feels like a cliche if it does not fit the story well. But if a character has to explain the situation he does not have to explain it in a cliched way. In the movie Running Scared (1986) for example, the police superior tells the cop, that he is going to end up in jail, and that if ends up having to arrest the cop himself, he is going to shoot him on site. Or he said something along those lines, but a superior threatening to shoot the officer, is definitely not cliche.
lol dude that is one of my favorite movies of all times. LOVE that one. Dan Hedaya did make a good captain now that you mention it. I was really going for hyperbole when I said 'can you think of a cop movie where the cop DIDNT'-- ...but I'm digging the examples people keep tossing, so keep 'em coming.
