But why is the self-conception not the decider? If I'm wrong, tell me why. I honestly just don't get it at this point. Why do you do believe in social cues over the essential element? Regardless of what is projecting over what.
What do you mean, why is it not the decider? Who says I believe in social cues over the essential element? You're taking things out of my statements that I'm not saying. Example people: Fred identifies as masculine. That might be his biological sex, it might not. But Fred's gender identity is masculine. Fred decides what "masculine" means to him. For Fred, it means being very physically fit, and wearing well-fitted but very conservative clothes, and speaking quietly but with authority, and driving an old Volvo P1800, and any number of other things. Fred expresses his identity with all sorts of behaviors and habits, some of them expressing is gender identity, some of them expressing other aspects of himself. Fred's friend, Joe, expresses his masculine gender identity as well, but he expresses it in entirely different ways. Fred's other friend, Sue, has a feminine gender identity, but she very often expresses as masculine--she wears tailored suits, and neckties, and she has a snazzy short haircut. Her gender identity is as female, and her pronoun is "she", but her visible gender expression can be seen as masculine. Why? I don't know why. It is. I know women like this, but I've never asked any of them why they choose a public gender expression that is generally different from their gender identity, because it's none of my business. Maybe they don't see it as masculine at all. Maybe...I don't know. None of my business. I don't know if any of the above is a problem for you. It's not a problem for me. And I don't see any of it calling for psychiatric tests.
It doesn't call for psychiatric tests. I think it describes why gender expressions are not the key thing and so are not gender. This seems pretty clearly in sync with what I'm saying.
... It doesn't support your assertion that gender identity is biologically determined, or your apparent previous belief that the word gender can only be used in a biological/sexual context. But, ok.
Regarding the transgender issue, being transgendered, I have spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff and discussing it with my transgendered friends. Not really a surprise when to many if not most transgendered people your choices amount to either debilitating depression and other such mental problems stemming from the nightmare of being stuck in the wrong body vs. life-ruining transitioning process when many lose their jobs, spouses, and children among other things if they choose to transition. Understandably, then, the subject of being transgendered and all that it entails comes up frequently. Anyway, I'm by no means the sole purveyor of The Ultimate Objective Truth, neither are any of my transgendered friends, but I figured I'll share what we have come to view as the defining characteristics of the "trans experience": This is only the viewpoint of a few individuals, but to us, sex = what our bodies are, e.g. a ftm transgendered person's sex is female. Gender = the thing that's fucking us up, e.g. a ftm transgendered person's gender is male, hence the dissonance between sex and gender. I don't have the studies etc. to link right now because I'm typing on my finicky phone, but unless we've been gravely mistaken, there is at least some evidence indicating that the brains of a transgendered person differ in some way from the brains of a cis person, possibly contributing at least in part to the sex vs. gender dissonance, but don't quote me on that without checking the facts first. I'll try to edit in some links to data a bit later. Basically, again, as we've understood it, being transgendered means, at least to us, the experience of being in a state of transition. It's possible to remain in a limbo of the transition if, for whatever reason, you choose not to transition, as is e.g. the case with myself. I won't go into my reasons here, but needless to say, it isn't unlike being trapped between a rock and a hard place: I can't and don't want to transition because of various reasons, but I also don't feel like my body is my own. Sometimes it gets so bad it feels like I can't breathe without drowning in the disgust I feel towards this body (and yes, here's a bit of argumentum ad verecundiam: I and most of the abovementioned friends have been diagnosed by more than one psychiatrist, some with gender dysphoria, all with a number of mental disorders, most commonly depression). If I remember correctly, I've seen varying estimates saying that 25-40% of pre-op transgendered people end up committing suicide. That ought to indicate it's no walk in the park. At any rate, the above means that if you are e.g an ftm transgendered person, you are a trans man before you transition, but as soon as you do, you cease to be transgendered and become simply a man. As far as whether it's a disorder, we don't know, but in our experience, it certainly feels like one because (again, in our experience) being transgendered is not a choice, and it has brought a lot of grief to all of us (and in some cases to loved ones too). In that light, I can't fault those who view it as a disorder. Some find happiness after transitioning, but I can't quite believe that the depressingly high suicide rates of pre and post op trans people would be simply due to outside influence. Most transgendered people we know suffer from varied mixes of psychological disorders with depression being the most common addition to the already messed up situation. One thing that riles us up are people who say gender is a purely social construct because if it was purely built through social experiences, media, and other external influences, logic dictates it should be possible to turn transgendered people cis through social conditioning. Send us to reassignment camps or some ridiculous shit like that. What's particularly insulting about that notion is that all of us have desperately tried at some point in our lives to become cis in all kinds of ways, but the one thing that has been uniform among us has been failure. Many of us tried so hard for so long (all at least years, some decades) to become cis (without transitioning) that we have exhausted all options to reconstruct our genders to match our sexes to no avail because in our experience, being transgendered starts on the inside. I knew by the time I was 2-3yo (it's possibly my earliest memory) even though I couldn't even speak properly and didn't learn the proper terms and concepts until well into adulthood. And then someone comes along with "oh, gender is just a social construct." Sure, a part of your gender is socially constructed, a part of it is an expression, an act, but it certainly seems there's actual biology involved as well, even beyond "just" psychology. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than for gender to be 100% socially constructed so that I could deconstruct and reconstruct mine to match my sex, but over the past decades nothing has worked, so I, among my friends, have grown to accept the unfortunate notion that gender is at least partly biological and therein lies the problem. As for so-called real or fake transgendered people, I'm not one to decide who is and who isn't a "proper" transgendered person, but when I see a pre-op AND pre-transitioned (i.e. they still project a cis look to the outside world, which is more clearly visible among mtf individuals due to the far more restrictive dress codes of men at least in western societies) person declaring they're transgendered yet they don't suffer from being transgendered, sure, I will have my doubts especially considering how being transgendered has become the "new gay" (kinda how being bisexual was in the 90s), the hot button topic, the latest fad, whatever you wanna call it, but I'd never accuse anyone of being a fake because as long as they don't make decisions for me (e.g. in the form of laws etc), it's none of my business. Hell, identify as a unicorn if you want, it's no skin off my back (I'm pretty sure unicornkin is actually a thing... at least on tumblr). Anyway, since transgenderism has been discussed extensively in this thread, I just figured I'd give a transgendered person's perspective on what it's like as well as to give some idea how at least some other individuals experience being transgendered.
Just to make it clear, I, personally, am not saying that gender is just a social construct. My entry into this debate was about the WORD "gender" and its use as part of the language, and what I see as Oscar's rejection of a large percentage of the function of that word. My saying that the word "gender" CAN BE USED in the context of a social construct does not mean that an individual's experience of gender is just a social construct. The fact that gendered clothing is a social construct (IMO) or that gendered behavior is in large part a social construct (IMO) doesn't mean that a person's internally perceived/experienced gender is a social construct. Same word, related but different usage. My argument is not about any individual's experience; my argument is primarily about the use of language and objecting to the narrowing of a word that has meaning in many different contexts, to only allow its use in one very specific context. I realize that that's tangential to the majority of your post, but I wanted to clarify that point, because that point seems to have been unclear to Oscar.
@ChickenFreak I know, that's why I didn't specifically accuse anyone. E.g. I haven't seen you say that gender is 100% socially constructed. However, I brought up that point because there are (and I've had the displeasure to encounter) plenty of people who do insist that gender is only a social construct. The irony is that those are usually the same people who claim to defend transgendered people/trans rights yet by saying gender is a social construct without links to biology, they are undermining the very thing what transgendered people are. As we have demonstrably seen in this very thread, transgenderism can be a very confusing subject to many people, transgendered people included (you have no idea), so it's not really a surprise why many transgendered people I know prefer to stand up for themselves. Their reasoning is that while the individuals who think they speak for us generally mean well, all too often they only wind up spreading misinformation, half-truths, and other notions that end up further obfuscating an already confusing subject and hence doing ultimately more harm than good. NOTE: I'm speaking generally, not specifically saying anyone in this thread was spreading misinformation etc. (although I'm also not saying they weren't). Anyway, I'm the same; I prefer to fight my own battles if given the choice, but at the same time I understand the reality that there are so few transgendered people that it's just a fact of life that more often than not, when people discuss or ask questions about transgenderism, there will be no transgendered people around to answer them, so then it falls on other people to do the job and on the trans community to hope that at least most of the information spread around as fact would be factual or at least not damaging. Personally I'm thankful to those who do spread facts and question the more harmful information about the subject floating around the internet.
If your argument is about the word alone, why bother so much? If all you are really saying is semantically the word gender means gender expression, then yes, that's mostly true. But my point is that it is inconsistent for gender, which is supposed to refer to people having a gender, to be about behaviours that have no tie to identity and can change. Again, is a tomboy male? Because if gender is about expression, surely a tomboy has a male gender? But no, it isn't. Because gender is and should be about gender identity, it's just the definition confuses things for some reason.
My point is that gender expression can exist as a phrase, but the word gender alone should refer to the identity because that is the context it is used for.
I think that you are so dedicated to winning whatever argument you think we're having, that you are utterly unable to understand anything that I'm saying.
An example of how this conversation is starting to feel to me. (No, there are no direct analogies of specific details.) "A small grease fire can be put out by pouring salt on it." "Salt is bad for your blood pressure!" "I'm not talking about eating the salt, I'm talking about puttng out the fire." "Just read all the literature! EVERYBODY says that salt is bad for your blood pressure." "Again, we're not eating the salt. It blocks oxygen from the fire, and puts it out." "Well, yes, high blood pressure probably DOES make it hard to get enough oxygen." "Again, I'm not talking about eating the salt. This is a different use for salt." "Salt is a food, isn't it? You get it at the grocery, don't you?" "We're not using it AS a food." "How can you say that food isn't food?"
What??!!! Seriously, not only are you arrogantly discounting the possibility I'm right, but you are even more arrogantly making the mistake that my interpretation is necessarily my fault. The burden of communication lies on you. If you can't explain what you really mean in a sufficiently understandable way, that's your fault primarily. Explain yourself or go whinge, i don't care, but don't just condescendingly accuse me of an ignorant attitude without sufficient proof.
You might or might not be right about salt and blood pressure. But that's not what I'm talking about.
Good God. This thread exploded when Oscar Leigh got to it. We're not even on topic anymore. That's long gone. This happened the last time there was something with gender and orientation, I've noticed.
:sim: Just a pre-emptive reminder to everyone that it's entirely possible to disagree in a civil and respectful manner. Focus on the subject of the debate, not the debater. Also, instead of double (not to mention triple, quadruple etc) posting, use the edit-function if you come up with additional things to say after posting your previous message and before anyone has replied after it. The editing tool exists for a reason, folks. Now, let's try to steer the discussion back towards the original topic at hand. Thank you.
Yeah, I meant to say we should stop this earlier but I became too involved because suddenly it was starting all over again and I got too passionate. I definitely agree there shouldn't be bad blood as well. Let's not go back to that subject again. Like, at all. The track is not there at all, it's far off, so to speak.
I'm just going by the original post here as there seems to be a whole bunch of strange arguments in the mix of general information. With gender, is all really depends on the culture of the place to begin with. Not all cultures are necessarily binary as most western societies (generally) are in a traditional sense. Researching culture and gender may help with that. Otherwise, if you wish to in some way hold up a mirror to the general western society with Gender fluidity, here's my take on it. I've found that those whom view themselves as gender fluid, see their own feelings of their gender as a spectrum. For example, A. is Masculine and B. is Feminine, within day-to-day life, they may feel themselves shift further towards A or B, and adjust their pronouns as such (as well as that they may dress in the way that may be perceived as masculine or feminine). In a sense, they feel more like a 'man' on Tuesday, but on Thursday they feel like a 'woman'. Dysphoria can also be mixed in with this, with, say, a person who was assigned female at birth, they may feel like on that Tuesday, that their breasts are 'wrong' and shouldn't belong to them, they may on these days feel quite distressed over having breasts. This is not always the case, however. (There are cases of children who are quite young, suffering dysphoria, such a 'assigned male at birth' wanting to literally cut off their penis) In most of my experiences, the people I've known to go through gender fluid are like to transition to either one of the binary genders or come out as 'non binary' with the pronouns 'they/them/their', not feeling comfortable with either being a 'woman' or a 'man'. This is however, not always the case. In the end, gender is in your head about how you perceive yourself to be. As a ciswoman, I perceive myself as female, by my younger sibling doesn't identify as either gender. As for pronouns, if the character is new, they may simply start with trying both, or they may move on to Ze/Zey/Zeir, they/them/their, or an offset thereof. They may also interchange between 'he/him/his/' and 'she/her/hers'. Though many may feel 'gender fluid' and still use their assigned gender at birth pronouns. It can be as complicated or as simplified as you like, because the idea is still relatively "new" in the sense of global knowledge towards it. That's not to deny it doesn't exist. When the earth was shown to revolve around the sun, that was a "new knowledge" too for a long time, doesn't stop it from being true, just because people are starting to understand gender better.
Well, it doesn't really even make sense from a logical standpoint. If gender is not connected to chromosomes, but rather the concept of masculinity and femininity, then what distinguishes gender from a generic set of personality traits? The sets of characteristics associated with masculinity and femininity are purely subjective. Some people find the color pink to be masculine. Some find it to be feminine. It's just a personal preference with no ties to either biological sex.
Please. Let's not discuss gender theory stuff anymore. It's already turned into a big consuming discussion twice before, let's not do that again.
I was thinking about this subject yesterday and it seems my understanding of gender fluidity is somewhat similar to yours, although mine is still lacking. Does your younger sister ask others to call her 'ze' or get offended if they don't get which gender she's feeling on a given day? To what extent is the outside world aware of her fluidity? Does she get anxiety when she needs to pick either sex in a questionnaire or some legal document? Or when she needs to choose which bathroom to use? Or, on a hot summer's day, if she feels like a guy, does she go around topless? If she's at a rock festival, and on that day feels like a dude, and there are long lines to the porta-potties, does she slink into the bushes and pee standing up? Like how far into the physical world does the gender du jour extend? How concrete, if you will, is it? These are the kind of things about the mind of a gender fluid person that'd interest me were I to write one. Oh, and I don't expect you to answer these questions; they were just examples of stuff that has crossed my mind when I've been thinking about this subject, and by no means do I intend to offend or mock anyone by them, I'm simply curious of how gender fluidity manifests itself in every day life. Clearly it's different from merely being a "tomboy," otherwise I'd also fit the bill...
Sex is based off chromosomes, though studies recently say that that too may become irrelevant. Honestly, there's evidence all over the animal kingdom showing that gender is not binary, with many species having multiple sex's, or switching if the case requires it. But you're quite right, gender is, at it's vest, relative. You answered yourself there. My sibling is AMAZING on this. Their pronouns are they/them/theirs to those they are out with. However, they have never criticised people. With me, they know me well enough to correct myself, with others, if they feel comfortable, they'll quietly and politely correct themselves. Example, a teacher may refer to them as "she", and they'll respond politely 'actually, my pronouns are they' if the teacher may not know. They're still quite young, but in saying that, they've 'ummed' and 'arred' more than many of my own peers. However, for another instance, I have a friend who refers to themselves as they/them/their, who has for a fair few years now (long before I met them) and they're pretty cool. I often spoke the wrong pronoun, being very new to the whole thing, and they were always polite with me, but would quickly call out anyone they knew who was purposely trying to hurt them. Anxiety CAN happen to my sibling. If they know people well enough to have a feel about their politics, they're like 'whatever' and can jokingly talk about their own pronouns. However, if they feel as though someone might make it difficult for them, unintentionally or intentionally hurting them because of their own cultural understanding of gender, they can become anxious about admitting their pronouns and stick to what the person refers to them as if they deem the situation 'unnecessary'. (e.g. the next-door neighbour may refer to them as my 'little sister') Bathrooms are an interestingly thing. At my university, we have multiple unisex bathrooms. A few years ago, I was quite surprised and did not know until I was washing my hands and a guy came out and did the same thing. However, after that, I thought it was fine. I have a partner that uses both bathrooms when drunk (a mix between 'can't be fucked' and 'can't read the sign' because their blind as fuck, especially when drinking), and was abused from both, their appearance fitting both "male" and "female" while at the same time neither. Men would often yell at them, and women would call them perverts. Didn't stop them from doing it. If the men thought they were trans* or gay, they would often try to start a fight with my partner. However, I have a friend who, though Assigned Female at Birth, and identifies as gender fluid, feels more comfortable in the male bathroom (standing and peeing is easy for most women, once they get the hang of it too, if that helps, too. Some vagina-owners can also super aim and do so with their pants UP, where most still need it around their ankles) Topless rules apply to the person. *I* personally, love going topless and have had many the fun skinny dipping, but my partner gets awkward if their belly peaks out. That's a personality thing, not a gendered one. The gender can go as far or as limited as you like. I'd say, with someone who's quite comfortable with their body, they might take a more relaxed position on either and gender, and do what they want. But someone who feels more anxious about it, is quite likely to do more stuff to "prove" (for a poor use of term) that they're a gender. For example, Benny is confident, they sometimes wear a dress, and sometimes like to dress in a suit, but their response is always to look in the mirror and think "yep, I look good today" on either day, they'll act how they'll feel like. They might wear a suit, and sit down and pee, because they're feeling lazy. They might wear a dress and not shave their legs for a few weeks because 'eh, effort'. They know who they are. Theo, however, on a 'feminine day' with do their make-up perfectly, they'll speak with a higher voice, and if someone says 'he' in reference to them, will feel hurt that they're not doing enough. On a male day, they may even make sure they 'smell' more masculine, basing their attire off their brother, than what they feel more comfortable in. However, it really comes down to YOUR character, what their personality is. Are they likely to look up at their parents and view them as the epitome of Man and Woman. Or do they like a certain style, and may style themselves more to male or female, or... confidence and anxieties also come down to previous experiences. I may feel like the hottest woman ever, until some girl comes up to me and says 'you look ridiculous in that dress', then I may grow anxieties about wearing that dress, more-so, if I think this is my BEST dress, then what about those I don't feel as hot in? I hope that makes sense. Also, an interesting thing to know, many trans* people do vocal training with a speechologist (in Australia we just call them Speechies, I'm not sure if that's the same anywhere else?) to speak higher or lower than what they previously may have spoken. I learnt that not so long ago, it was one of those 'that makes sense' things. Not everyone does it, but I know a few friends who do.
@the Sídhe's Writer Wow, thanks for all the information and taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences You don't have indecency laws in Australia? I'm from Finland, and over here you can't stroll around with your breasts out (you can sunbathe, say, in a park, and you might not get in too much trouble if you went skinny-dipping in the sea, but for the most part it's illegal... I guess if you called it an art project you could get away with it ), and, well, breasts are often quite unmistakable, hence the question. Like, would a gender fluid person be ready to have a confrontation with the police if they felt their rights were being infringed, for example. That's an extreme example I guess, but it's pretty much a fact male and female nudity are treated differently in many Western societies. This led me to wonder, can you outwardly look quite a lot like one gender, say a woman, (e.g. have big breasts, soft, doll-like features, long hair) yet still wouldn't identify strictly as female, but simply both, depending on the day/moment? And is gender fluidity related to the fairly old concept of "gender-bending" (colloquial, I know, but it's something laymen are familiar with) à la David Bowie? Or are they different, and if so, how? Sorry, I'm just super curious.
I thought we did have them. I don't know if maybe they're different in whatever state @the Sídhe's Writer is from, or what. But I could swear they were very similar to most Western countries, pretty standard I thought. @the Sídhe's Writer, could you explain here please?
I think we do, but many places like festivals and such a bit lax. That and I tend to go to the beach with a few friends around midnight, slightly tipsy. And yup, 'art project' gets you, for the most part, away with it. I mean, there are many university stories about the naked theatre students. Though Mardi Gras is filled with breasts. I was practically topless the entire event. But it depends on the body type for one, some people, regardless of gender or sex will, to loosely quote Terry Pratchett, be "an ironing board with two peas placed on it". But some breasts, like mine, are unmistakable. I know some people who will say the police are being transphobic, and will go out of the way to make the police feel humiliated or antagonised, and some who will laugh and agree to put their shirt on. The former may honestly believe their rights are in question, the same way a cis-male will feel the same if asked to place a shirt on for safety reasons 'it's a free world!' and view they're being picked on for some reason. (to be political, I don't care if being shirtless is made legal or not for women, so as long as it's equal across the genders, but I don't really fight it if I'm asked to put a shirt on, police ARE after all, just doing their job) You're all good, I don't mind answering. I don't think there's any correct way to be one gender. I mean, many people view gender fluid to be like David Bowie and Tilda Swinton, but, there are short dumpy cis-males out there, and females who are tall, lanky and thin with a strong jaw who you would mistake as being male. So, say, if Scarlett Johansson said she was gender fluid, because she's seen as the western epitome of gender, it makes her no less valid in how she feels (if she did feel that way). Beauty of what is the perfect male and female is, typically quite androgynous in the fashion runway world, and a bit more binary and quite white in the western world (though not always). There's an interestingly thing known as 'passing' that many trans* people feel to be quite a dangerous term, viewing those that 'pass' as the gender as "succeeding" and those who are "unable to pass" as failures. Gender bending, I suppose is quite similar. I quite like it. Like, Cate Blanchett in a suit is ridiculous attractive. And there are many a men I've seen working heels better than I could, that I also found attractive, so in a sense, yes? I think?
Is it weird I'm depressed about @BayView blocking me? At first it was like a splash of water in my face, then it felt very frustrating, and now I feel saddened that this person feels the need to automatically discount everything I say here. Am I really that bad?
