1. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Trials by demon

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Lea`Brooks, Mar 24, 2017.

    Hola!

    So I've just started a new WIP, and I'm loving it. But, I'm starting to feel like I'm not smart enough to develop the plot entirely on my own. :p So I'm reaching out to you fine people in the hope that y'all will have bigger brains than me!

    Essentially, there are six demons in my story, one for each of the seven deadly sins except Envy. (Envy was killed.. not important.) In order to find a new Envy, they have to find a human whose main corruption in life is envy. If she is envious enough and kills a person, she'll change into the Demon of Envy (haven't worked out all the "why" mechanics yet, but I may just leave it vague). So my six demons hunt down ten women, lock them in the Demon of Greed's basement, and tell them they're competing to marry him. The hope here is that pitting them against each other will make them jealous or envious of the others, thus making it more likely they'll kill out of envy (can't believe how much I'm using that word :p).

    So! I need to develop trials (five total, to be exact) to put these women though. These are meant to almost break the women, helping them to tap into their inner demon (figuratively and literally, I suppose). So they can't be too horrifying or traumatizing.. They almost need to be empowering? In a weird way? So far, I only have one. Well, maybe three, but I don't really consider two of them trials.

    One is a party. The Sin Demons invite over a bunch of demon friends to have dinner and dance the night away and fun stuff. It's mostly meant to see how the women handle being around a bunch of demons, see how they fit in, see if they shrink in fear, etc. Not really a trial.

    Another is spending the night with the Demon of Greed. Since he's the one they're competing to "marry," he invites one up to his room every week to spend the night with them. It's supposed to test how interested they are in him, how interested he is in them, etc. But since the marrying is just a cover story, I don't consider this a trial either.

    The only real trial I have figured out is no-holds-barred capture the flag. Two were eliminated early for trying to escape, two other were eliminated by trials, so this is the third trial. Six girls play: my MC, her sister, her nemesis, and thee other girls. My MC ends up on a different team than her nemesis, and MC ends up beating the crap out of her. This starts my MC's downfall into darkness. So I need the two trials before this to be less extreme, and the two trials after to be more extreme, preferably. And the other trials need to really get inside their brains, because they're being tested mentally, not physically.

    Is any of this making sense? lol Anyone got any ideas?


    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  2. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Dang, your premises sound good.
     
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  3. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    So it seems to me that seeing who would start some sort of whispering campaign against one of the others would work well. Maybe go back and find that reality show "Temptation Island"? Each woman gets a bracelet or something, and it's insinuated that one of the bracelets (but no one knows which one) is much more valuable than the other, and that value will manifest itself in the appearance of she who wears it? In reality, they're all equally worthless (the bracelets as well as the contestants), but the contestants will be going nuts as each of them tries to manifest the quality of "good" bracelet she thinks she has?

    I dunno, that's a little unfocused, but it might work out. Go back and watch some of those reality shows from about ten years ago though. "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?", "The Bachelor," "Temptation Island", I'm sure you'll find all sorts of contests that bring out exactly the sort of bad behavior you want to trigger.
     
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  4. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I am wondering why the demonic representation of greed is the prize?

    Though I would have to agree with @Iain Aschendale , that it is kinda
    like those reality/contest dating shows.

    While it sounds like an interesting premise, it is a little on the nose
    in the message. The impact of it could be really good, or really bad.
    Depending how well you can present it.

    As for trials, are you doing the 7 Sins Gauntlet? What are the rules
    for each trial? It would be just like Hellish contest to try to make
    it as unfair as possible. Kinda like a reverse Dante's Inferno if you
    will, but with special set of parameters for the contestants. Each can be
    a sort of test to see who can resist the temptation of a specific sin.
    Or most willing to indulge the sinful nature no matter what.
    Hell is all about manipulation and corruption and all of that stuff.

    What happens to the eliminated contestants?
     
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  5. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    It's just a cover.

    Not sure what you mean by this? What message?

    No... lol I'm doing five trials.

    I don't know because I haven't created then yet. lol That's why I'm here.

    I don't want it to be hellish. Or unfair. I don't want to traumatize the girls so much they kill themselves or sit in a corner and rock back and forth until they die. I don't want them to feel tricked either. It needs to be a game they can make sense of so that it can be won. Otherwise, there's really no purpose.

    Mmmm no... lol I don't want to test them on every sin. As I said in the OP, this is a trial for the Demon of Envy. I only want trials that enhance that sin, not the others.

    They're killed...
     
  6. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Umm?
     
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  7. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    The prisoners don't know that because they never see it.
     
  8. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    So I guess no one else has any ideas? o_O
     
  9. SoulFire

    SoulFire Member

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    I do have any issue with this plot idea. I know you've discussed it with other members in a few threads now, but my biggest issue is that, wouldn't demons view humans (and their culture) to be below them? I understand that they are looking for a human, and have to transform the human soul into the demon in some manner, but why base this trial off of human reality television? Why play games like flag football? Why do a bachelor type situation?

    I can't comprehend why the demons would be motivated to reflect human culture through their trials, and that leads me to not like this story as much.
     
  10. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Well, all the demons in my story were once human. They lived a life of sin and corruption, and when their cruelty turned into murder, they were changed into demons.

    The purpose of kidnapping a human is to find someone who has lived with sin. The trials are meant to make them aware and accepting of that part of themselves, to "surrender" to their darker selves and embrace it. That way there's more of a chance they too will turn into a demon when they commit their first murder.

    I never stated I would base these trials off of a game show. That was a suggestion by another member. I'm simply looking for ways to help a person tap into and release their inner demon (figuratively and literally). And I need the trials to do that -- strong enough to make the girls rethink how they view themselves but not so strong as to shatter them as people.

    Make more sense?

    Edit: It's not flag football, it's capture the flag. Two teams are placed on either side of a playing field (but it's more like an obstacle course than an open football field). The goal is to sneak into enemy territory, steal their flag, and return it to your side without getting caught. But it's a no holds barred game, which means the girls can trick, cheat, and fight to win. The point of this trial is to unleash the girls' anger. To make them become competitive enough and scared enough to do whatever it takes to win, including beating another girl to a pulp. It's to bring out that dark side of them, a raw and twisted place that they'd never really gone to before.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  11. SoulFire

    SoulFire Member

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    This feels like a television game show like a mix between The Bachelor and Big Brother which feels very very odd given the desire to make them change in order to murder the other. The ideas just feel too contrasting. I understand that this is a cover, but I cannot imagine these women believing it, especially consider they were kidnapped and forced to play this game.

    Also, by what you have stated so far, does every person who murder become a demon? Are there other criteria or rituals? (My idea would be that the person would have to have a fractured soul somehow to make them a viable candidate, thus how these characters are chosen... which could be used to further the emotional growth of your main character than her sister/friends.)
     
  12. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    I agree with Soulfire, the idea of a bacheloresque contest feels contrasting. But! I love your premise and I'm actually writing a book right now about Angels and Demons, but there are eight trials in my book. However mine are not the deadly sins but the four horsemen of the apocalypse. If you wanna brainstorm together I'm totally up for it. Also, instead of the word Envy you could use the word Jealousy when not referring directly to the Demon. :)
     
  13. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Oh, the contestants are killed when they fail? That's another stark contrast that irks me a bit. 'Lets play capture the flag! You lose, you die!' A bit jarring. I think if you're going to stay within the realms of humanity with your trials then it might be best to have 'human' consequences with a bit less brutality. Or, make the tasks a bit more brutal. I personally would remove the marriage part of the book altogether if you take that route. Why would these women, who had been kidnapped and forced to kill (Not forced, you know what I mean,) and then die if they fail, want to marry mister Demon? Feels like a stretch to me. Otherwise this is all right up my alley and I'm liable to babble, forgive me.
     
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  14. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Alright, I wasn't anticipating this would turn into a complete dissection of my concept, but I'll go ahead and answer the questions if it helps get people back on track and answering my question.

    I don't understand why you think the women wouldn't believe it. They're kidnapped by an evil entity and told Dimitri (main demon) is looking for a wife. He's going to put them through a series of tests to determine which woman he wants to marry. After each test, one woman will die. If you try to escape, you die. So the girls have no choice but to play -- or they die. There's only two out of ten girls who actually want to marry Dimitri, but it's because they are emo queens who think that there's something romantic about darkness and evil and demons.

    Not everyone turns into a demon, but many, yes. There's blood magic involved, as well as the victim's last words. It almost acts as a curse, and their dying breath mized with their blood makes it real.

    These are demons. Why would they kidnap ten women, admit they're demons, put the girls through hell, then just let them go? Nah. They have to die. I don't want to stay in the realm of humanity -- I don't believe I ever said that. I just don't want the games these girls go through be so dramatic that they throw them into hysterics and become unable to function. These girls have to maintain the belief that they can escape, they just have to bide their time. But if they're only seeing gore and evil and traumatic images, it'll be all I can do to pull them out of the corner they've crawled into.

    See above. Eight out of the ten girls don't want to marry him. They just want to live. So they have to play along until they can find the best opportunity to escape.

    Now! Can we please get back to the question at hand? Still need to figure out my trials, and while I appreciate y'all trying to help me, I'm quite firm in my story and no amount of discussion is going to change my mind. I get it won't appeal to everyone, and I'm fine with that, but I'm writing it just the way it is, and I'd appreciate it if more people answered my question instead of offering suggestions that I didn't ask for.
     
  15. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Skip to the first bolded word to ignore my anecdote.

    When I was young—I'm young now, what am I saying?—I had a very screwed up story I called something like the Alice Games or else equally silly.

    The premise was simply 3 people just sort of get dragged into this screwed up Wonderland type world that's an elaborate game you have no choice but to play to escape. And all the rules were sort of set up to bring out the worst in people.

    One of the three is randomly chosen to be the Alice—that person is the main player and the only one who must accomplish anything to win and escape.

    The way to win was either to get everyone of the nonplayers of Wonderland to love you (the Alice), one to love you and the rest to like you, or everyone to hate you. You are not allowed to tell the nonplayers game you are playing or you forfeit. Also, there will always be one person that loves you, one that likes you, and one that hates you at all times.

    If you win, the Alice player can go home with two people—but it doesn't have to be the two the player came with.

    If the Alice dies at any time, one of the two other players takes the role. But the two other players are not allowed to kill the Alice—unless within one of the several minigames.

    Also, the minigames in general are often violent requiring battle of some sort.

    So basically, the game is meant to manipulate people's emotions. Pick an outcome, and do whatever it takes to achieve that outcome.

    However, the only way to win with the seeming impossible fact that someone always hates you, likes you, and loves you is that most likely you will have to make one of your friends/co-players hate you. Otherwise you'll have to make all the nonplayers hate you, but they're all likely to kill you at some time if you chose that route.

    The secondary players also are meant to mistrust you, because they don't know if you'll choose one of the many nonplayers to bring back in their stead & leave them behind. And generally as one starts to dislike/hate you, it's more likely they'll take the opportunity within the mini games to kill you.

    And then as everyone will have to defend themselves in the minigames, so often either for immediate self defense or preemptive strike, it encourages players to kill others & potentially each other.

    (I was considered a very morbid child).


    Anyway, I don't think the trials or games or whatever really matter themselves (mine were based on card games & chess)—it's how the rules of said games encourage whatever behaviour or actions the demons find desirable or needed to fulfill Envy.

    First something that establishes selfish tendencies, that discourages acts of kindness, assistance, or sacrifice and nurtures self-interests & self-preservation. It's alright if they feel empathy or sympathy during this, but in the end the individual's needs outweigh any sense of philanthropy

    Then you'll want a trial to breed mistrust and malice amongst the girls—it'll already be somewhat established from the earlier trial where all the remaining girls have acted in self-interest & unsympathetically to one another. But the focus will no longer be on themselves, but on the others.

    Then a trial to support warped sense of "fair" or what each person "deserves." The devaluing of other players from fostered mistrust and the increasing sense of self worth from nurtured self-centeredness.

    A trial arranged to encourage a "want" or "desire," especially of things they don't or can't have but they now feel entitled to possess.

    And the final trial should cement a ruthlessness in achieving goals or taking possession of their desire, with sole selfish motive and at the active detriment & with a disregard for anyone else.

    That's my take anyway, and I hope it helps somewhat.
     
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  16. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    That helps tremendously. Thank you very much! That is a solid place for me to start. Really appreciate it.
     
  17. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I reiterate that this idea is fucking awesome and I don't care what you have to do to pull it off!
     
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  18. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    No problem.

    And I just chose attributes & behaviours I personally believed lead to Envy (interpreted based on its etymology coming from "to look on with malice" and how I understand it)

    You can decide what you personally think is key to aspects of Envy that need to be fostered. And then pick a game where the demons emplace rules that encourage these things.
     
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  19. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    One question: do the women know what's at stake here? Even if the marriage angle is a sham, do they realize that all but one of them are going to die? If so, I would think that survival would be their only motivation and the envy part would kind of get lost in all that. They'd kill because they have to, regardless of envy or any other attribute. Or is it more like the demons' series of trials are designed solely around inciting envy and death for the losers is just incidental?
     
  20. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    I'm still debating, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to make it that the girls know they'll die if they lose. Otherwise, they have no reason to play his games. They can just sit back, say "fuck you," and be surprised when they're murdered. However, if they know that the loser of the trial dies, it almost forces them to play to the best of their ability so that they don't lose.

    And the "loser" isn't necessarily the loser, if that makes any sense at all... lol Like in the Capture The Flag trial. Just because a girl is on the losing team doesn't mean a girl from that team loses. Dimitri judges them based on their effort in the games, not the outcome.

    So I guess the phrase "you only have to be faster than the slowest person" doesn't apply here. If Dimitri can tell a girl isn't putting in her best effort, she'll be the one to die.
     
  21. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Well, the premise is a homerun. Do you need to have five trials? It sounds like you might have some opportunities with the opening gala and the alone-time with Dimitri to weed out a few of the contestants. Too much direct competition might seem -- I don't know -- like a dominant flavor that overpowers the dish? Like the story becomes more about surviving the game than an awesome ride through envy and inner demons? I'm not saying the capture the flag things wouldn't work at all, you'll need at least one of those and probably two, but if there's a way to simplify the competition in a way that reduces narrative weight you'll have more room to play with the fun shit. The reason the Hunger Games worked so well was that the competition/stakes part of it was so idiot-proof simple that it faded into the background and left an open field for the characters, themes, and subtexts to graze. I'm not saying you need to make it like that - you clearly know what you're doing -- but the tighter your driving engine the more you can focus on the character's transformation, which is the real hook of the story in my opinion.
     
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  22. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I realized earlier that I only needed three trials, not five. I started trying to figure out the eliminations and found out I didn't need so many tests to put them through. Also decided to have eleven girls instead of ten (because one wasn't supposed to be there -- Dimitri ordered it last minute).

    When the girls are first kidnapped, they're locked up in the basement for a few days. It's a really big room, with ten beds and no bathroom (chamber pots... :blech:). The first girl gets eliminated for crying loudly the entire time. One of the other demons can hear her crying and is tired of putting up with it, so she takes the girl out and she never comes back. The second girl gets eliminated for trying to escape. Two people get eliminated in the first trial -- one for refusing to play, the other for losing the trial. I just decided (based on your post, thank you :p) that the sixth girl will get eliminated after staying the night with Dimitri. He takes her out of the basement to stay with him then never comes back. The seventh girl gets eliminated after Capture the Flag. Eighth is random. Ninth after the third trial. Then the last three I have a big plan for.

    So yeah. I just need to figure out two more of the trials, but the rest of the time will be spent on character development. Some time in the basement. Some time with Dimitri and the other demons. Some drama with another demon. So yeah. More character stuff and less trials. :agreed:
     
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