Creativity

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by HellOnEarth, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    My friend sent me a link to a free online course and said she'd thought of me. She was quite excited so I signed up. I signed down on the first day of the course.

    I can only hope you get what you pay for...?
     
  2. Millamber

    Millamber Senior Member

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    That bad hey?

    well I looked at this course last year and the Spring class was full, and due to unforeseen circumstances, I didn't get on the winter one in time, but booked for tomorrow. I guess the fact it fills out must be a good thing?

    On a side note Tenderiser, is your avatar Rik Mayall in Bottom? Love that show/live shows!
     
  3. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I hope it's good! I'm not sure if the one I was on was really terrible or if it was just pitched at the wrong level; it seemed to be for people who had never written anything creative before.

    It is indeed Rik Mayall as the Virgin Mary with his finger sewn back on the wrong way around. :) Can't believe it's nearly three years he's been gone.
     
  4. Millamber

    Millamber Senior Member

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    On the basis it's my first course i'll probably think its great and exciting, as i'll have nothing to compare it against! We'll see though. Bit nervous thinking about it as I've never done anything like it before!

    I thought it was, but didn't want to seem a bit of a nutter if I'd got it wrong ha. I know, it's shocking. I think he was best in Bottom Live 3, my favourite live show they did
     
  5. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    I think it's hard to predict what you will get out of a course without knowing what you're interested in and whether the course in question will help with that interest.

    I've found a lot of benefit from some courses I took, and zero benefit out of some other courses, to the point of basically dropping from them entirely partway through. For example, I completely misunderstood the description for an evening course at my local college titled "Writing Comedy" and ended up sitting in a drama department course for actors looking to expand into screenwriting. How to format a screenplay, how to submit spec work, how to adapt from a play or standup, if that's what you've already written. Nothing I was interested in, so I bailed after 3 lessons.

    And yet... Something I found unexpected benefit from was improv acting courses. Originally I treated them with some aloofness, like I would treat a course I was auditing or something. But after a few days, I realized that actors are 'showing' instead of 'telling' - just using their bodies instead of words - and I realized this could help my style tremendously. I still participate in their drop-in program to keep the juices flowing.

    So, I think it's unpredictable whether the course you're registered for will be a good fit, but my ultimate advice is to be prepared to look for ways the course can help with at least one aspect of writing.
     
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  6. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    Do you believe it is necessary to attend courses to become a great writer?

    I'm at that point when I feel that I need serious guidance to evolve. There is something I'm doing wrong because I don't feel like I'm writing on purpose. I have sparks of inspiration where I can perfectly imagine the feelings of the characters and the scenery but I immediately get stuck when I try to move the plot forward; introduce new themes; and/or try to explain/show things about my world.

    It's like a checklist that I need to include but including them organically is extremely difficult and breaks the flow of my writing, making it seem redundant and without soul.

    Perhaps I need to plan out my stories from the start? At least have certain plot points that the characters should move to and give myself more creative freedom in between?

    I've ordered a few books, "Invisible Ink, Hooked and Planet Construction Kit" that will hopefully help me get out of my funk!
     
  7. Siena

    Siena Senior Member

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    There is a craft to learn.

    Courses can be terrible or great. It all depends on finding the right one.
     
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  8. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    For your initial question, while it helps a great deal and is highly recommended, it is not absolutely required to have formal education to become a skilled writer. There's plenty of bestselling authors who did not hold any such degree, such as Charles Dickens, H.G.Wells and Mark Twain, to name a few. This is not to say that you yourself may not need it, I am personally thinking about taking some courses, but it is possible to be published and to not have taken any.

    When it comes to plots and world building, this is something that pretty much has to be done in a separate document that is purely for your purposes. Planning things out and designing the mechanics of, say, a fantasy or sci-fi story, takes a lot of extra work. If you aren't doing sci-fi or fantasy, then most likely you'll be doing a huge amount of research instead in order to make your fiction or non-fiction to be as real as it can be. Otherwise, your reader will call you out on it.

    Plot development is its own beast, but it can be tamed. There's the theory of storytelling, which is broken down into sections that your story goes through. There's almost a science to it, but you still have to fill in the blanks with your own ideas. You need characters, a goal to your story, a journey to get there, a climax and then the ending. There's a lot more in between, like what is your MC learning along the way, what are their inner demons/struggle, how does this tie into the main story or affect how they handle the situation. What choices are made along the way, etc. This is where you personally can have a profound influence, some of these things you might find yourself relating to, and if you can relate to them, so can other people.

    Hope something in there helped.
     
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  9. MachineGryphon

    MachineGryphon Member

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    I am a firm believer in courses. Without going on one with a fantastic and skilled tutor last year, I wouldn't have written since last April. She inspired me to take that little short story and develop it into the novel it's now becoming. I'm working on a short story right now inspired by her asking me just to "free-write" about a random object she brought in to class. I've since learnt how to use dialogue in my stories and how to edit and take on board criticism as best as I'm able.

    As someone who had severe issues with school, the gentle encouragement and relaxed "work" environment was a major blessing to me. I intend to take the course again, and several more if I get a chance. We never stop learning, and as people have told me, writing is like a muscle. Got to take in the right stuff and work it out to make it bigger.
     
  10. Jeff Countryman

    Jeff Countryman Living the dream

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    Courses can help . . . but if you detect the same lesson after going to many of them (different gurus just saying the same thing but in different words and/or their own 'coined' terms) then it's time to give up and just write what you want and be done with it. Classes/courses/retreats offer an opportunity to make friends and network, so that's a bonus :)
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Do you feel like you have a good idea of what your writing needs and how you can learn to give it what it needs? If so, I don't see the value of a course or any other outside help. But if you're missing either the diagnosis or the cure, then, yeah, maybe a course would help?
     
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  12. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    Like any craft, you need to learn how to do it, or, more accurately, how to achieve the best results. There also some great writers who teach their craft on YouTube. Here is a visceral reading by Garth Marenghi, which can teach us a huge amount about his passion and his craft: -

     
  13. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    I guess it is a little bit of both. But I think I'm slowly making sense of what the problem is. I stepped back from novel and short story writing and devoted a whole week to a 1500 word flash fiction. I can more clearly find my pitfalls this way and I'm starting better understand what I'm doing wrong.

    So, yeah, I guess courses may be unnecessary in my case.

    It's always nice to vent, however, when you are deep in the bog.

    We're all looking for the magic answer when we have problems, hoping for someone else to fix them for us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  14. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    I'm reminded of Charlie Kaufman's brilliant screenplay of Adaptation, where his persona goes to a screenwriting seminar and gets a list of rules that should absolutely be followed if he wants a marketable screenplay; by the end of the movie, he's gleefully broken most of them.

    This is not to imply that these seminars are bunk. But it's like going to a doctor's conference to see if they can help you self-diagnose your medical condition. You may walk away with an insight, but you may find that your condition is not what the doctors, with their limited information about you, seem to think it may be.
     
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  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I despise formulas. But they must work for some people.

    I've taken courses, read a gazillion books (or actually excerpts from most of them), read online sources and blogs, exchanged information on forums, and taken my book in chapter by chapter to a critique group after going to half a dozen and finding the right group.

    One thing that is clear from all that is there is no one way, no one formula, no one good writers' advice books or even styles. I found some great resources that others didn't like. Others like resources that I found useless for them. Try a lot, filter it, take the parts of it that work for you. There is no one thing that works for everyone.

    I, myself, absolutely loathe formulas as I said. Made me gag to hear students and the teacher in one class I took go on about the 'mid-point-plot-reversal'. :blech: I wrote off my tuition and dropped out. No sense wasting time and money. But some classes are no doubt going to be the one thing that worked for someone.

    People rave about Steven King's and Orson Scott Card's writing books. I found both to be little more than common sense. On the other hand, Lisa Cron's Writing for Story was excellent and I would take her classes were I near UCLA.
    How Not to Write A Novel - 200 Classic Mistakes and How to Avoid Them--a Misstep-by-misstep by Howard Mittelmark was great even though I knew most of what he covers.

    The more you widen your knowledge base, the better writer you'll be. But do you have to have formal training? The evidence says no.
     
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  16. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    This has basically been my approach. Classes and books certainly can't hurt if you approach it in the right mindset. Courses become, I think, bad for development when a student takes the word of one person as gospel and disregards everything else (including their own intuition).

    A course can't teach you how to become great, but it certainly can allow you to try out a different approach and maybe after a couple courses, and a few books, you'll mash all those doctrines together into something that realistically works for you to develop your own greatness.
     
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  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Well said, Spencer.
     
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  18. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    I think courses can be good, but can also backfire and leave you more confused than ever. I've had both good and bad experiences resulting from workshops and courses. I empathize with your self-doubt, though. I think the best way to face that is to just push on, and discover your own best method. This takes time, and may or may not require exposure to others' methods. Some of your greatest methods will be stuff you discover on your own.

    It sounds like you already have ideas, which is good because it means you already have a creative process developed. Sounds like you just need some help organizing what you have, to gain some faith in your own work. I do think taking a course could help with that. But I think the best thing you can do is to just read excellent works in the genre you are interested in, and learn all you can about fundamentals of the craft and storytelling. I'm referring to universal basics rather than the 'latest and greatest' 1-2-3 method being sold for $99 online.

    Perhaps the way you are thinking about the process is clouding the issue in your mind. Here's how I go about it:


    I divide writing up two ways: There's the content, and the delivery. Some stories are great ideas but poorly written. Some very well written books have stories that truly suck.

    I would even divide 'delivery' up two ways, also: structure and style

    It's normal to have doubts about your work and wonder how it will be received. The psychology of writing is a very important part of your method. I think you may benefit from a divide and conquer technique.

    Me, I separate the processes so I can wrap my mind around it all and keep a proper focus:

    1--
    My storytelling stage comes first and it's very messy. I dump all I can out onto paper/computer to get everything in the open & visible. I make charts, notes, whatever I have to do. This is the conception stage where I'm thinking up my story, characters, plot, sequences, literary elements (irony, etc). It's a wild-card, free-for-all phase where I have FEW rules and I let the story do whatever wild stuff it wants to.

    2--
    Then once I have a complete concept with sufficient info to begin writing, I start drafting my chapters. Even then changes can come regularly. At this point I focus on flow and direction and interest and pace. (most of all flow and pace). But IMO you can't get to these yet if you haven't got a concept developed in the first place. (I know pantsers will disagree with that comment!)

    3--
    Then a read-through (after a significant amount of time has passed) offers insights, so I may make adjustments, move stuff around etc. I do light SPAG at this point but do HEAVILY focus on wording, turn of phrase, the 'sound' of the sentences/words. I call this my 'style tweek' which is not the same as SPAG. (in my mind it's not).

    4--
    Then I wait a bit more and do a final read and if all'z good I tighten the SPAG as far as I can take it myself, then I send it to my beta. (who is great btw. Nothing gets by her)


    So if I started out working on SPAG from page one, can you see what a disaster that would be for me? It would entirely eclipse my creative thinking muscle and ideas would never appear. <<--IMO the storytelling process is an organic one, and the later 'tightening' is more technical, logical. I can't mix these. I have to be fully organic while I'm in creation mode, then switch hats to go into editing mode. Maybe some people here can do both at once and if so, hat's off to them. But I can't.

    Anyway, this is why I choose the divide and conquer method. I think the way we THINK about our writing has a lot to do with how we approach it.

    BTW I learned all this (^^above) the hard way. I was taught a completely opposite method by a well-meaning very successful multi-millionaire NYTBS writer. He and I work totally differently. I just can't do his method. He nearly derailed me completely, back then, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. (ah, but that is another story for another post ;)

    Here's wishing you all the best in your writing pursuits. As a huge fan of TGWTDT I'm now a Swedo'phile. :)


    --cheers, tea



     
  19. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    Always nice to meet a fan ;P

    After some soul searching, I've been playing with an opposite approach of yours, (at least your first stage) though only with flash fictions at the moment. When I get the idea for a story, I do whatever it takes to write in as few details as possible. I write as broadly as I can because I cannot cope with all the details and notes when I try to make sense of the story for the reader later. Basically, to keep track what's been said and what I need to explain further down the line.

    When I have all the plot elements written down and the back story of the characters worked out, it is then that I go nuts and writes whatever comes to mind.

    In other words, I need to store all my idea subconsciously so it flows naturally when I get to the meat of the story.

    The material first, then the theme. Never the other way around. I mull over the material for a long time before I set pen to paper.

    I take long walks alone. Going over in my thoughts, some experience from the past that I have not merely known but lived through. Do you see the difference? Not merely experienced but lived through and put behind me. Only when it is absolutely clear to me, when the central problem have been digested in this fashion and becomes an abstract formulation, only then do I begin the process of committing myself to a paper.

    I write a draft. Very Crude. Very rough. Then I work on it. Changing it. Adapting it. Distancing it from the original, personal events and transforming it into a generally applicable experience.

    Henrik Ibsen From “Ibsen’s Ghosts (Playwright)
     
  20. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    Reading your post, I don't think we go about it differently at all. Either I was unclear in how I explained mine, or you read it a way I hadn't intended. I will take full credit for being unclear!

    I think I covered all this in my 'it gets messy' segment of the process. You can't yet jot something down if you don't quite know what it is you want to say.

    So, yes, understanding the story and what it is, where it's going, who is in it, etc is all necessary before I begin constructing anything. For me, all that takes place BEFORE my #1 in the list above. I don't think I made that clear. I mostly went over my 'planning' process because you mused over planning methods in the OP. I agree that CONCEIVING of stories and characters, is a TOTALLY different process altogether. I wasn't speaking to that because, as I said, you mentioned planning so I thought that's what you were interested in.

    Your method looks great. It sounds like you are all set, and don't need a 'course' at all!

    Best wishes,

    :)
     
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  21. Megs33

    Megs33 Active Member

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    I struggle with focus. I have two modes: daydreaming aimlessly or staring at a problem until i'm cross-eyed.

    This makes writing particularly tricky. I take a scene and promptly think it to death. I stare at the minutia through a magnifying glass and put my plot in a choke hold. My writing can be less of a flow and more of a constipation.

    Compounding this situation is the fact that I know what it feels like to achieve that perfect stream of thought. I'm apt to stop what i'm doing and suddenly glaze over in thought at random (ask my husband, he thinks it's weird), but the minute i try to turn my focus inward to translate spark in to story, that state of mind shatters. then my overactive brain starts sputtering over trying to relax and be free which... doesn't work. Of course.

    I've considered keeping note cards with me to record random thoughts, but even that seems to mess with my head, like trying to box up my daydreams will suffocate them or something.

    I'm curious who else struggles with this. how do you rest your attention on a state of awareness that's so fleeting? Do you do any exercises or meditations prior to writing that help you relax and focus?

    I'm getting better... but it's a work in progress.
     
  22. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    I suffer from the same problem with both my writing and artwork. I'm always thinking and trailing off into possibilities for my work, or worrying that an idea is to complex or contrived to have any impact. When it comes to actually bringing myself to "put the pen to the paper", for me, it's not about trying to focus. In fact, the more I try to focus, the more I try to pick apart each sentence or drawing, until I get so frustrated that I give up. Instead, I put myself in a sort of trance, trying not to think of anything and not putting myself under too much pressure to create something. If I can't manage to put anything down, I stop and move to something else. If it doesn't feel natural in the process of putting it down on paper, it likely won't feel natural for the reader.

    In terms of meditation or ritual, perhaps watch or read something that matches the tone of what you're trying to write. You don't necessarily need to do it for inspiration, but rather to get you in the mood and feel for what your character(s) might be going through in the story under similar circumstances. Other than that, perhaps, just do something that relaxes you and makes you comfortable enough to sit down and write for any length of time.
     
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  23. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Kind of the opposite for me. One thing I learned very early about writing is that it's a highly manual, laborious craft. So many words. So many hours. So many rewrites. Kind of like laying bricks or mowing a really big fucking lawn. Even the first draft of a novel, despite the work involved, is nothing. The train has barely left the station. You still have edits, rewrites, betas, more edits... sometimes it feels as if it will never end. I learned quickly that dwelling over individual beats and scenes wasn't worth it in the early game. Just getting the first draft done is hard enough without sweating the details.
     
  24. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    I'm still new at this, but I'm observing that if I can daydream and generate ideas away from the keyboard, then I am somewhat productive at the keyboard. So, your index cards idea actually works for me.

    Or, more specifically, a tiny moleskine. I walk for several hours a day to/from the store, or for exercise (at least while the weather holds) and I find I have a lot of ideas during these blocks. I jot them down, and when I get home, I have something to focus on and develop (or discard, if the idea is blah in hindsight).

    When I first stared, I was using the dictation tool on my cellphone, but I got really self conscious about talking weird in public. The notebook works much better for my personality.
     
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  25. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I do the same thing. Usually I'll take the dog for a walk halfway through the writing session and inventory what I've done so far and brainstorm how to bring it home by the end of the day. Or I'll spend most of the walk trying to keep the dog from eating the dead frogs smeared across the dirt roads. For whatever reason, there seems to be a biblical amount of those this year and my dog wants to eat all of them. He hasn't seemed to learn that they make him puke. Or he doesn't care. Not the brightest pooch in the litter, methinks.
     
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