White Characters Dominating Fantasy Worlds

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by MilesTro, May 25, 2015.

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  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But you probably (hopefully) spend some time learning about some aspect of humanity that isn't identical to your own identity, right?

    So... carry on. If some people choose to explore sexuality and you choose to explore something else, that's okay. It's the exploring that's important, the idea that we don't need to be limited to who we are as individuals; we can learn about other ways of being/thinking/feeling/loving/hating/etc.

    ETA: And also... enough with the damn strawmen! Why do you jump so easily to "spending every second learning about other people[']s sexuality"? As usual, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT.
     
  2. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah
    I think Simpson's point was that as an Ace of Spades (I remembered that correctly, right? I'm sorry if I messed it up) is that he is somewhat encumbered by our culture to familiarize himself with & understand heterosexual culture, so it wouldn't be asking too much for others to branch out & learn about peoples and cultures outside their own for the sake of our stories
     
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  3. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    @NoGoodNobu Yup :) Ace of Hearts is asexual/[any]romantic (Big Bang Theory's Sheldon Cooper, for example)
     
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  4. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    I personally don't write my mcs anything other than white because I don't want to misrepresent or offend. I don't know the culture, not in a meaningful way, and I wont claim to. I don't feel any amount of googling could verse me in a culture I didn't grow up in.

    Whenever I write a character of a different ethnicity I worry that I feel forced and... I don't know.

    Clueless and presumptuous.
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Does that only apply to race, or to all other sub-groups? Like, would you write someone of a different sex than you, or a different socio-economic class? Someone with significantly more or less education, someone who was raised in an abusive (or non-abusive, which ever is not your background) home? Would you write someone of a different race who was not from a different culture? Like, my best friend growing up was biologically Chinese, but she was third-generation Canadian, totally assimilated, didn't speak Chinese or know any more about Chinese culture than I did. Would you be able to write someone like that?
     
  6. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Well that's what research is for. As it is for anything else about the writing process :)
     
  7. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    To be fair, BayView, It wasn't Moose who brought up this strawman in the first place.

     
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  8. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    I could definitely write something like that. But a lot of the things you listed aren't about culture as a whole, more personal experience or circumstance.

    For example, I'm Australian. My characters are American, always. My personal culture is insanely Americanized, we are similar in many ways, but everyday I'm googling what american people call certain objects, different dialects and manners of speaking etc.

    And I make a total ass of myself, all the time.

    I've been writing for around ten years, raised in a culture synonymous with American culture, and I still don't know enough to feel confident portraying it.

    I have a great deal of respect for all life. Personally though, I don't portray cultural minorities because I can barely portray cultural majorities.

    In saying all that, I think it needs to be done, white people as a majority need to get behind minorities and showcase all our unique differences. If I'm ever skilled enough to do it, you bet your ass I will. as I am, though, I'd probly be more offensive than flattering.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think colour/race is automatically about culture as a whole, either. I think Nicole Ritchie probably has more in common with Paris Hilton than she does with a poor black person; I think my friend of Chinese descent had more in common with me than with a girl our age raised in China; I think Neil Degrasse Tyson has more in common with Bill Nye than he does with Mike Tyson; etc.
     
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  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Oops - Sorry, @big soft moose!
     
  11. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    You say strawman... well, I obviously don't say sarcasm because that can't possibly be a thing.

    ... In all some seriousness, do you see how an LGBT+ guy might think that him saying "LGBT+ already spend every second of every day learning about cis-straight culture" might carry a different meaning than a cis-straight guy saying "LGBTs want to force cis-straight people to spend every second of every day learning about LGBT+ culture"?
     
  12. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    You're very right. Culture is one piece of a bigger picture.

    Maybe I'm too much of a character perfectionist?

    Or more likely I've just not been motivated enough to convincingly portray enough diversity.
     
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  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I got confused by the second part. I mean... obviously I think they carry different meanings... they're different statements...?
     
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  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I assumed that you meant that cis-straight culture is all around you, so you can't help but learn about it all all all the time, whether you want to or not. And that therefore learning someone else's culture is not, in your opinion, that impossible a burden.

    Maybe.

    But you may have meant something else.
     
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  15. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Are we all just talking around each other?

    What's going on, here?!?

    Is this real life?
     
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  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    SQUIRRELS!
     
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  17. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Everyone, quickly, to the eggshells!
     
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  18. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    @BayView @ChickenFreak I think the three of us agree on what I was trying to say. That's something at least.

    IS THIS JUST FANTASY!!!
     
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  19. CuChulainn

    CuChulainn New Member

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    Diversity for diversity's sake is a fine argument in and of itself, for all the same reasons it's worthwhile everywhere else (bonus: in a fantasy novel, you're not 'taking a job from a white man' to write a diverse character, so no 'harm' done!). I like the idea of a wide readership in which nonwhite kids get to see that characters just like them could be heroes, too. In a wider sense, stuff like this matters. Especially when we still live in a world where people LOSE THEIR $H!T when they see a black Stormtrooper or find out that Dumbledore is gay.

    Many of you have been arguing that it's nobody's job to write gay characters or black characters or female characters or what-have-you. I feel like that's a narrow-minded, self-centered point of view. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls," remember? Why WOULND'T you think this important and worthwhile? Is forwarding the whiteness of fantasy characters something you really want to stand up and fight for? If so, ask yourself why?

    BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, writing all straight, able-bodied white male protagonists is just LAZY, BORING WRITING.

    If you decide to write a wizard and he looks just like Meryln/Dumbledore/Gandalf, what have you done to distinguish him and add something unique and new to the body of fiction already out there? Are publishers really going to want another Gandalf trope when they could get a character like Tara Abernathy (Max Gladstone, "Three Parts Dead") - a black female wizard - instead? Why don't you try selling your tired old white man wizard and find out? IT'S FANTASY. Wizards can be cats. Warriors can be dragons. If that's okay, you could contemplate something as insane as a chubby asian female protagonist, for example (who is not a martial artist, P.S. Still lazy).

    Along the continuum of 1) skin color, 2) able-bodied-ness, and 3) sexual orientation, it's interesting to move those sliders around and see what it does to your story/characters. Does it affect Cormoran Strike (author: JK Rowling) that he lost his leg in Afganistan? Yes, but it doesn't interfere with his character - it makes him different from all the usual gumshoes. Does it affect Rufus in the TV show "Timeless" that he's black? Yup! Traveling to the racist past as a black man opens up a LOT more interesting storylines than if he were your typical white man. Even small differences can be interesting: from Lila Bard's glass eye (Shades of Magic, V.E. Schwab) to Thomas Covenant's leprosy (Stephen Donaldon's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant), making characters something other than typical makes them REAL and INTERESTING.

    So I say write 'em. You can write the normative white character, too, of course - but try mixing things up a bit. It won't kill you and it might even make your writing more interesting.
     
  20. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    You don't see the implication there that non-white, non-straight etc characters are inherently more interesting? Or that one should approach it purely as a marketing tool?

    For my 2 pennies; write your own damn stuff. If you're a writer, why waste your virtual breath trying to persuade others to write what you want to read? You do it, and do it better.
    I'm writing characters who are English, who aren't from London, and who don't speak 'standard' English in their every day lives because that's the perspective I care about.
     
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  21. CuChulainn

    CuChulainn New Member

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    I see the implication that different characters are inherently more interesting, because that's how I wrote the statement, and I see you instantly leaping to the defense of the poor trivialized white character, which I find amusing. You're also purposely overstating my argument ("purely as a marketing tool!") to make it sound ridiculous when, as written, it's perfectly practical advice.

    I am writing my own damned stuff. But I was under the impression - on a message board where the OP had asked, 'why do you think so much of fantasy is white?' - that using my virtual breath to discuss the topic would be a reasonable use of this space. That okay with you?

    Finally, let me make an appeal to authority: this is advice given as well by some pretty reputable authors... Brandon Sanderson, Mary Robinette Kowal, and Dan Wells, for example (see http://www.writingexcuses.com/2016/09/11/11-37-casting-your-book-with-gama-martinez/). So I (and they) will respectfully disagree with you.
     
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  22. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    My second point was more general; this comes up so often that people wasting their breath. Using a thread that's there is one thing, but people are constantly posting them.

    As for the first point, I don't think it's particularly overstating your point. If non-white characters are different and different characters are to be desired...
     
  23. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Ooo nice podcast thanks :)
     
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  24. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I feel i'm caught ina landslide...
     
  25. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Let me get this "straight," so to speak:

    The publishing industry has decided that straight white men are inherently more interesting than anybody else.

    In the real world, America is ≈85% straight, ≈65% white, and ≈50% male (≈25% of the total), but on film, America is 99.9% straight, 73.1% white, and 69.7% male (≈50% of the total), and even the 50% of characters who represent 75% of America's real people are further skewed towards the supporting role, while the 50% of characters who represent 25% of America's real people are skewed towards the leading roles.

    An author decides that straight white men are equally as interesting as anybody else, not more interesting. Not having put in the work to make most of the leading characters straight white men, the author writes something which better tells the truth about reality that there are other people in the world.

    The publishing industry accuses this work of not caring enough about the 25% straight white male audience – or as they call it, "the audience."​

    The leading protagonist of my Urban Fantasy WIP is a black lesbian, my secondary protagonist (and first-person peripheral narrator) is a straight white man, and my tertiary protagonists are a straight white man and a straight white woman.

    Given that straight white men make up 25% of America, but make up 50% of my protagonists (including the narrator), would you say that I'm pandering to a minority by cramming them in where they don't belong?

    NO ESCAPE FROM REALITY!!!
     
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