White Characters Dominating Fantasy Worlds

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by MilesTro, May 25, 2015.

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  1. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    You'd think publishers knew women read more books than men.

    Who doesn't read books
    Who reads books
     
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  2. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I just realised that in the darkest storm i've never specified whether Duster (the MMC) is black or white ... its not really that important to the plot, so should I chose blasck in order to be more representative, or white to 'write what I know' ?

    his real name steve miller isnt that useful in determing race as he could still be white or black - but probably not asian
     
  3. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    You really would, wouldn't you?

    Same goes for video games and comic books: http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/dear-straight-white-men-you-are-being-pandered-to-as-well-7652399

    ... Oh holy **** I need to catch up on Doctor Who :D :D :D :D :D but more importantly "Women make up the majority of gamers and are the fastest growing comic audience."

    If I was writing this, I would make the decision based on what the rest of the cast looks like.
     
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  4. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    The only difference I see there, though, is that we'd actually want to encourage boys and men to read more. It's unlikely to happen with women-centered literature. This is an ongoing problem in my country with YA novels. The industry is completely skewed in girls' favor while boys keep falling behind. The fact is, most boys don't care about pony books or baby sitter books, and that's okay, they don't have to. But that's a bit too OT for this thread, I guess.
     
  5. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    1st thought: Millennials read more than Boomers? WTF?
    2nd thought: Many millennials are still in school and have to read books.
    3rd thought: Duh.
     
  6. CuChulainn

    CuChulainn New Member

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    "As for the first point, I don't think it's particularly overstating your point. If non-white characters are different and different characters are to be desired..."

    I feel like you're really missing something here. I don't know that I can be the one to explain it to you or fix your misapprehension. I've asked you twice now why you feel like you want to defend the right of authors to write male, white, heteronormative, able-bodied characters so badly when (as Simpson points out above) it is already the norm and there is no shortage of them. That is, people can and will continue to write them. So thinking outside the box can be good sometimes.

    Different characters are to be desired, but there are lots of ways to make them different besides just making them black or gay (or gay and black). But I'm actually not trying to convince you - that would be a waste of time. I'm just discussing. In all honesty, I don't care what you do or write; the chances of any of us becoming well-known authors is pretty low (not that we shouldn't try!) so write whatever floats your boat. The publishing world will do with you what it will, and your story will be whatever it is, and I will or won't ever read it probably without even knowing either way.

    But like I said, I think you're missing the point of this discussion, or at least the positive aspects of it, in your desire to be sure that gay minorities don't somehow take over all of the literary world, LOL.
     
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  7. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    Can I pose a question here?

    Why is it when everyone talks about 'diversity' it nearly always boils down to skin colour and/or sexuality?

    The arguments we have for black people in fiction could easily be applied to subsets within the broader umbrella.
     
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  8. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Sounds good! Let's get on that ;)

    Though the numbers are a factor: straight white men being 25% of America, yet probably 65%-85% of America's leading fictional protagonists, seems like a stronger disconnect than a lot of the others.
     
  9. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    Well, you see, due to circumstance (hundreds of years of dicking everyone else over), that 25% happens to control a lot of the money, a disproportionately large amount actually, and as every book is an investment in terms of printing and advertising costs, the publisher wants to make their money back, which means they have to appeal to the people with money, and then try to maximise it to create the most profit, meaning they will try to appeal with those with the most money. There's a reason there're some small publishers that specialise in "minority fiction", though if they become popular they get bought by bigger publishers, and then fall to the same mentality as the big publishers.
     
  10. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Question for anyone:

    If I don't mention the skin color and/or orientation of a protagonist, and I doing a disservice to the fight for diversity?
     
  11. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    You are taking a strong stance in the name of Neutrality. Enjoy your Swiss cheese ;)
     
  12. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    *shakes head*

    Let's put it this way.

    An Irishman hails from a different culture to Poland, and I'd love to see more works from both countries in bookshops, but I feel like the ones who shout loudest for diversity treat this fact like it's irrelevant.

    This is what I was talking about.

    Has the world become so shallow that the only diversity is based on the gender of your lover and your skin colour?
     
  13. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I'm just thinking about some of my stories, and I can't think of many that I mentioned either of those things. And it has nothing to do with trying to "enjoy my swiss cheese." I just didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the plot.
     
  14. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Is this supposed to be directed at my comment because I used those two things as a baseline for the question rather than typing an exhaustive list of all the different classifications of diversity?

    Because if this is directed at me, then you're out of line with the *shakes head* bit.
     
  15. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    It doesn't nearly always boil down to that. Sounds like you're reading self-selecting samples: like a thread titled "White Characters Dominating Fantasy Worlds."
     
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  16. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I knew the Parvati twins were Indian, Cho Chang was Asian (Chinese I assumed), and Dean Thomas was black, et cetera et cetera, in the Harry Potter series and I read the British publication (where it wasn't spelt out for us unlike when the American publication felt it needed to be more textually explicit)

    The names helped, and sometimes just a few clues like what sports teams or music or whatever they are interested in as a hint.

    However, if the American publication really thought it was necessary to spell out their ethnicities and skin colours, then perhaps most readers do default to white if not expressly told otherwise, which is sad
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
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  17. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Interesting.

    My brother and I are Americans with 5th-generation Irish heritage and a few percent Cherokee on the side, and we've never been discriminated against in America for being Irish (despite having the most blatantly Irish names this side of Connor Potatofarmer O'Leprechaun). Is your experience in England different?
     
  18. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    Not personally, but it is worth remembering that in the nineties the IRA was bombing pubs, so the Irish got a lot of flack then.

    I also mentioned that Irish were enslaved in the Americas alongside the African ones to a black colleague, and he told me that I was undermining the suffering of black people by saying that.

    Also, look up "No Irish Need Apply".
     
  19. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I guess that was the crux of my question. If something can't be easily inferred, do people generally default to the baseline?

    And maybe I have made it obvious through clues, but generally, I just don't mention those things. I can't remember the last time I actually mentioned what a character looked like at all. I don't much like reading those types of things, so I don't write them.

    I don't know.
     
  20. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    I think inedentured servitude and slavery are legally & historically different beasts

    But yeah, lot of immigrants were treated like crap & were the butt of discrimination

    But I don't think the comparison of Irish indentured servitude and African slavery are equivalent in nature
     
  21. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    The evidence suggests yes, unfortunately. :(

    I've had the same conundrum as you, because I also include very little physical description. I think putting in strong clues is the best compromise.
     
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  22. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    And are the effects of this still happening?

    Was indentured servitude as collectively vicious in America as chattel slavery was?
     
  23. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry, no, lag at its finest. It was in reply to the discussion to my question about what people seem to mean by literature needing more diversity.
     
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  24. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    Any who were born to indentured servants were slaves for life and the mothers usually stayed with their children. This prompted the practice of practically breeding them.

    However, this practice is nowhere near as known nor discussed in history as the slavery of Africans.

    As for now, how many stories do you know to be set in Dublin? Or the Romanian town of Sulina? Or Warsaw? Or Edinburgh?
     
  25. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Source on this?
     
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