White character in Asian fantasy

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by stingrae, May 8, 2017.

  1. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    The photo looks like the cast actually is Japanese, which is surprising to me

    Should I give it a look-see?
     
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Save for the characters who actually are caucasian in the story, the cast was that rare-for-time casting of actually Japanese actors. I'm sure this had at least some small part to do with the popularity of the show since this was a pretty novel thing.

    Should you see it? Part of me is now curious to give it a rewatch myself. :) Again, it was super popular.
     
  3. Stormburn

    Stormburn Contributor Contributor

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    The 70's and 80's were an odd time. As bad as television and movies were at continuing and reinforcing negative stereotypes, the seeds of progression were taking root. The movie about the Pearl Harbor bombing, Tora, Tora, Tora! not only had a Japanese cast but showed the events from their POV. Another movie that had a huge impact on me was Zulu Dawn. It was about the defeat of the British in their first invasion of Zululand. On the other hand, Hollywood still insists that Jesus look like a member of a southern rock band from the 70's, so, there is a lot of room for growth.
     
  4. The Scarred Servant

    The Scarred Servant Member

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    From what I know of Japan's history (Not the best on that, I'm more for Victorians, WW2 and Old America), this can easily make sense. There were instances of white men being in Japan, but they were mostly greeted by the racism you'd expect. Though, I believe there was one man famous for being one of the few well-respected white people in Japan.

    Basically, look into the circumstances surrounding your character's involvement and make sure him being there and important isn't treated casually. Also, I'd suggest going to the research forms for better understanding.
     
  5. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Because there was no racism or sense of superiority from the imperial or religious foreigners towards the people of Japan?

    The racism I'd expect comes from both sides. Japan was incredibly hyper-xenophobic no question, and Europe was all imperialists saving uneducated savage natives by forcing the various colonized peoples to emulate the West's rational, civilized society—often coincidentally earning sufficient monetary gain from spoiling the land, exoticizng the people's culture & selling their native objects as curiousities or decorations for the people's back at home to oggle.

    The Phaeton put up a false Dutch flag & then captured and ransomed the Dutch representatives' lives for supplies, threatening to attack all the ships in Nagasaki harbor. Commodore Perry brought 4 ships and threatened to open fire if Japan refused to negotiate trade with the US, and actually demonstrated by having his ships attack various buildings along the harbor. Japan also got a nice view of what happened to the Chinese at the hands of imperial Britain in the Opium wars.

    The racism I expect is as much from the white foreigners as from the native Japanese.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  6. The Scarred Servant

    The Scarred Servant Member

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    I didn't say that.
     
  7. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    What you said, which somehow the quote got botched in my earlier post, was the white men "were greeted with the racism you'd expect."

    It comes off as the expected result is victim white people, racist natives

    What I was saying is the racism I'd expect would be from the colonial powers and the European religious/military/merchant men that make them up as well as the consequent fear/mistrust/dislike of these men by the Japanese

    Edit: just to be clear, because I realize tone is hard to come across reading text—I'm not trying to attack you or imply anything against you as a person. It was merely that sentence that I took issue with as it came across with an unsettling implication

    All I meant to say is more often than not the white foreigner brought their own racism over with them, and weren't merely at the receiving end of the Japanese'
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Ironically it wasn't just the British it was all the foreign 'trade delegations' - which included imperial Japan
     
  9. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    Japan actually had trade with China prior to the first opium war which was just Britain. They were not involved in the second—although France & the US joined Britain in the second, with Russia not fighting but using the war to its advantage. After the revised treaty (because chinese decided they didn't like it & tried to fight to regain control but failed) with the heavy Western presence leading to the Boxer's rebellion—THEN Japan was involved with US, Austria, Germany, Italy, France, Russia, and Britain to put down the rebellion & enjoy a whole hell of a lot of pillaging in the aftermath.

    But yeah, imperial Japan was definitely piece of work.

    I personally feel bad for the Ryukyuans (Okinawans for westerners) who just got it bad from everyone all around. A nice little kingdom made of a series of islands—made by more powerful forces to become under China by paying tribute. Then Japan coming and wanted their cut, also demanding tribute SIMULTANEOUSLY. Then Japan just went screw it, your ours and you suck. Then US takes them and that goes over so well. And then US "returns" them to Japan, but with squatters rights. And Ryukyuans to this day are not allowed to speak their own native language & must learn Japanese curriculums and are still second class citizens, et cetera.

    Edit: Also, Imperial Japan started in the Meiji restoration, so after Japan was bullied to open its borders.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  10. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    As others have said, no, not whitewashing, but yes, possibly whitesaviorism depending on his role. If you want to write a white character, just go for it.

    In the US maybe, and in Western Europe and the UK, if we're talking about the West. For example Japan looks pretty homogenous to me. And my homecountry is like 98 % white, so areas that are completely white are not hard to find. Don't get me started on Poland, Bulgaria and Hungary. Conversely, there are countries in Africa that are also racially very homogenous, so I wouldn't say it's rare, although our eurocentric or North-America-centric way of thinking would suggest this. For example, I think it makes sense that American characters are racially diverse because you're a land of immigrants (white, black, brown; from every race), you are a melting pot. Western Europe has also experienced a lot of immigration (colonialism, wars, etc.), while more remote parts of Europe + Eastern Europe are far less diverse. Say for whatever reason you wrote a story that took place in Estonia and made it look as diverse as a story set in New York or L.A., you'd basically do whatever is the reversal of white-washing.
     
  11. Bronson

    Bronson Member

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    Funny. I always think of this when it comes to high fantasy. Writing in too many extreme species, i.e. miniature, ogres, half-vampires lol, and so on. It really just depends on where the story takes place. Real world, or fantasy, it can seem unrealistic (I know what I said) if rarities aren't the exception that get treated as such.
     
  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Confetti-bombing? :rofl:
     
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  13. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    ... Now I hope everyone will start calling it confetti-bombing. :-D
     
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  14. EstherMayRose

    EstherMayRose Gay Souffle Contributor

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    My family and I were talking about this once, and my dad mentioned that when he watches period films/ TV shows, he often wonders why Victorian London is so ethically diverse, and why no-one is shouting abuse at the black factory owner.

    What is it actually called? (Although I do like "confetti bombing"!)
     
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  15. QualityPen

    QualityPen Member

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    <Avatar spoilers>
    Well to be honest, it made a lot of sense in Avatar. Jake Sully was a savior to the Nahvi Navii Naavi... Blue People not because he just happened to be a white guy, he was a savior because he came from an advanced civilization and (being a Marine) he knew the strengths and weaknesses of human military hardware and tactics. The Blue People were fighting helicopter battleships with arrows. When he defected to the Hometree side, he brought with him a couple of heavy machineguns, grenades, and a goddamn helicopter. In the end, even his white savior behind wasn't enough- it took the magical tree goddess to stop the attack. Granted, him taming the Big Orange Dragon was a bit over-the-top and should have been done by Naiteery his Blue Girlfriend instead.

    The white savior trope really only comes into being when the savior is white for literally no reason.
     
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  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think that final line is accurate - I'm not sure it even makes sense.

    I haven't seen Avatar, so I can't really speak to that, but... for what reason was the character white in that movie?

    For what reason is any character white? I can't really figure out what you're saying.
     
  17. QualityPen

    QualityPen Member

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    Hmm, I could have explained that better...

    I suppose I should have said human savior instead of white savior.

    What I mean by white savior is the 19th century European idea often found in movies of that time period, in which other races are helpless without intervention from white Europeans. The white man from Europe comes along and easily solves a problem which the indigenous population has been unable to solve.

    It is racist to imply that white people are superior and can solve everyone's problems, but the idea that someone from a more advanced civilization can contribute valuable knowledge is not. Therefore Jake Sully's contributions to the Naavis' war effort against the human invaders make sense, and he is human because this is the only way for him to have this knowledge, not for the sake of trying to demonstrate racial superiority over the native aliens.

    Likewise it would make sense for a European in Japan to bring some kind of valuable knowledge present in Europe over to Japan, like in Last of the Samurai, and this would make sense. Solving all of Japan's problems by being a white savior figure (in the 19th century meaning) would not make sense.

    I'm tired as I write this, so I'm not sure that I'm being very coherent. Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.
     
  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    19th century movies? I'm confused again.


    The idea of a white savior trope doesn't need to be about trying to demonstrate racial superiority, in my understanding of the idea. It's more of an unconscious bias.

    Again, I haven't seen Avatar, but from what I've read it definitely seems like it would fit the trope.
     
  19. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    Avatar is Pocahontas... but is it racist? Hmm, it is a bunch of like minded individuals of differing races working against a common enemy. I think people are often searching for "isms".

    You once mentioned that "The Help" is troubling. I agree. "The Help" might not have been if it had simply recognised that a person in a position of privilege might actually be helpful; but instead it concentrated on the meagre hardship the privileged individual suffered as a result of helping, while ignoring the true hardship suffered by the true underclasses.

    It is a thin line to tread, a person in privilege can assist, but do not paint them as martyrs and ignore the suffering of the true victims.
     
  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think the White Saviour trope automatically equates to racism or any other -isms. It's a trope, a cliche, an over-used story that doesn't need to be told again... and it might suggest racism. But it might just be laziness.
     

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