I wasn't denying that. I appreciate Romance quite possibly gets the most stick and that most people, tongue-in-cheek or not, do make surface judgements that doesn't reflect the true talent in the genre. As far as I know all the ones I mentioned that I didn't like are Romance but maybe I'm wrong. A couple of them were very angsty but I would've thought they'd still be listed in the Romance section. And obscure or not, they still count, given that they have still been read by many people. I have only read perhaps 15 Romance books in my life so I can't list many more but I'd be surprised if the over dramatisation and aggravating side of the genre isn't prevalent in at least some of its books. It's no different to other genres like Spiritual or even Horror (especially if we go by film not books.) They all have the really bad stuff that we try hard to ignore but what blights the genre still.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing but yes, you are wrong about many of the books you listed. It's not surprising - most people who make generalisations about the genre aren't familiar with it! I suppose we can all agree that every genre has books we think of as bad, so yay - consensus!
I can say that I have read one such book that would meet this criteria. However I can't say have looksy for yourself as it has mysteriously vanished along with about a dozen or so other books by the author. (Author included has withdrawn) @Tenderiser I think it is far less accessible to everyone. Am I a straight man not allowed access to a genre specifically tailored to women and gay men? While I have interest in going off an a wayward adventure, or being haunted by some lurking mass of terror and dread, it would seem that my demographic is not allowed to be apart of the softer side of things that Romance has to offer. I know it sounds stupid coming from me, but it has a very niche/exclusive audience, where as pretty much every other genres is open and accessible to all. IDK, just having a legit thought about why it is so hard to get into something that was never really meant for me. So where is the books for the oddballs like me in Romance, or should I abandon the thought entirely? (I am off to go and have my Fem MC go out on a rescue mission to save the big dumb burnt guy she fell in love with out of respect and being treated 'normal' and well.) (Spoiler shits going to get ugly)
I don't agree with your basic premise that romance is only accessible to women and gay men. For a start, about 30% of my volunteer beta readers have been straight men. Stats suggest that around 20% of published-romance readers are men, with no evidence that they're all gay. I could decide that sci-fi is inaccessible to me, as a woman, because of the way it's marketed (the cover designs, the way the vast majority of MCs are male, the language used in marketing) but, as a sci-fi writer and reader, I hope you know that's nonsense. I'd be cutting off an avenue of great pleasure to me if I decided sci-fi wasn't meant for me so I shouldn't bother with it. I'm 100% sure you know you're being silly to say you're not "allowed" to red romance. What does that even mean?
Wow. I really didn't expect to start this argument, nor did I intend to. Oops. I will admit that my original statement was perhaps an overgeneralization of the genre.
I mean I don't think I am wrong about many of those books but okay. I won't argue the toss over it. I appreciate you're a fan of Romance and that's fine but there's nothing wrong with offering an alternative viewpoint. Plus, while you've read many more books than me in this genre I still have a bit awareness than just random generalisations thrown around. I think the you're wrong approach doesn't capture the whole picture. Also, to make clear I'm not arguing and I don't want people to see it as that. I just saw someone had posted a parody version of what Romance can look like and then a few people stepped in to say this never happens and I thought well...that's not true. You can say that my post is groundless if you want, but I don't think it is and I'm sure there's plenty of evidence out there that would support my point. I'm not saying just every genre has bad books, I'm saying there's a reason why people have these views about Romance and why as you say people make these generalisations that to me are often grounded in truth. I do agree with you that Romance probably is unfairly singled out because maybe it is seen as only appealing to a certain group of people or whatever. However, you're preaching to the converted here as I enjoy romance in novels and it's not a problem to me. I just felt it had gone a little one-sided and that people were dismissing a truly viable point made by a few people earlier on in the topic. It's not an argument just a discussion.. Anyway, I'm not meaning to tread on toes and I'm not trying to change opinions (that's often impossible). But it seems to me that there are plenty of Romance books that are guilty of all of the junk you don't want to see in that genre and why some people would form a negative view. I suppose that's the crux of this whole conversation here. And if you don't agree, that's fine, but it doesn't mean there's no basis in that point. I think it's more the case that what I've said can be found in Romance but it's just one part of it. I totally agree that Romance can be a great genre and more people should first try it before making an impression about it, I am just saying that you have good love stories from the heart and you also have the shallow books which plague the marketplace too. EDIT: Thinking about it I tend to enjoy romance the most when it is a part of a book, which is very common. Take the Hunger Games. I absolutely loved Peeta and the way he was with Katniss. At its heart the first book especially was just as much about their relationship than the action or killing.
Oh come on now... You've read fewer than 15 romances, you think fantasy books belong in the romance genre and choose them as examples of bad romance writing, and insist your view of the entire genre has as much basis as people who actually write romances? No. This does perfectly illustrate my point that the people who make generalisations about romance are the ones least familiar with it... So thanks, I guess.
I never said fantasy books belong in the romance genre. I made a comparison on a specific point that makes perfect sense. Just as Fantasy has tons of stereotypes and same old material so does Romance. My initial post on this was very brief and I was getting at that all of these generalisations people make aren't always without reason or cause. And that's because they exist. And with respect I am entitled to a view and an opinion and while I don't write romance, I do write generally. More importantly, I also read a lot. And a reader's opinion is not without weight. Besides, I didn't know you or the other guys wrote romance. I've already acknowledged that you know more than me on this particular genre, but so far you've been more dismissive than anything without explaining in detail why I am wrong on this. Firstly, it all seems very subjective to me, and secondly, I've not been unfair or irrational in what I've said. Now, 15 books in one genre is enough to give your two cents and that's not including different people I've known who have spoken on the subject with much more time spent reading Romance -- not to mention articles or background reading I may have undertaken. Can't really see why what I've said frustrates you so much, but that's the way it's been taken. I'm not being contentious -- but I can't just change my mind on this and take what you've said at face value when what I've said makes total sense. I'm not trying to win or lose here, and it's struck a more serious tone than I intended, but you seem biased to me and while I am sure you have read many good romance novels we are talking about the whole genre and everything that comes with it.
Sometimes you have to take genre with a pinch of salt. Many times they overlap and there are books I read that I'm not sure where they'd be placed. In life we often experience a bit of love, a bit of horror (you should see my workplace) a lot of comedy and etc. Maybe even a bit of adventure. Sometimes when people talk of genre it gets too formulaic, like you're trying to tick all these boxes and make the shoe fit. That can be fine, even logical...but no, I'm happy to read a book because it's just a bloody good story.
Well that last point comes across as a bit condescending, but okay. Out of the two of us I'm not the one saying you're wrong or you don't know enough or you're making generalisations and what have you. A bit of a shame really as I'm just putting time into looking at this with an open-mind and seeing all sides. But hey, if this is all about making you look right then great.
But out of the two of you, discussing Romance, it would be pretty absurd for you to say she's wrong or doesn't know enough or is making generalizations, because she isn't wrong, she does know enough, and she isn't making generalizations. If you don't like it when people say you're wrong, don't know enough, and are making generalizations, then stop being wrong, learn more, and stop making generalizations. At least, stop making inaccurate generalizations... If you have some sort of evidence that dialogue in Romance is demonstrably lower quality than in other genres, then, sure, that'd be worth looking at, but you having read fifteen books that may or may not even be romances isn't evidence. I know, you just kind of stepped into all this and didn't mean to offend anyone, and that's why I've largely stayed out so far. But you seem to really be digging your heels in, and I'm not sure why you're doing that. I think you should just let it go. Don't you?
Okay, Jupie, I'll save you. Instead of looking at bad books that may or may not be romance, what are some good Romances you enjoyed that you'd think would be a good model for someone to read and learn about the genre? Since Erotic Romances are my second favorite type of book I read, I'd suggest Alessandra Torre's Black Lies. It is a great introduction to the genre that had a twist of an ending. - Also, Tend, Laurin Kelly, and Bayview are very accomplished writers in this genre, Jupie. They are the people I go to for advice for my romance subplots or main premises. Learn from them.
I only dug my heels in because it seemed I was met only with a passive aggressive tone, but there we go. I wouldn't have said all of that if I didn't think it to be true. Since I haven't been given much evidence against it, other than being assured I know less, it goes against the nature of discussion to say okay, I won't contribute. An outsiders view of a genre is important, as is diverse opinion. I'm not convinced this is a closed case but to keep good feeling I'll agree to disagree. Like I said though, I don't rate Romance any lower than any other genre. If I can post an article about poor dialogue in romance I will. I think with more balance we'd see a more impartial look into the pros and cons in Romance
Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights and The Notebook I all really enjoyed. They are very different too but page turners throughout. A good romance novel is passionate, heartbreaking, tender and inspirational. I will try your recommendation. None of my posts were without explanation or thought. Can't really see how it turned into a right or wrong affair, seems like it's in need of exploration to me. Besides, I wasn't disrespectful, but there's no authority on this subject here. Opinions may be challenged, and if you are an expert, it is good to listen too.
I had a brainstorm about a book the other day. Long story short, I was playing around with the idea of how over used 'Vampires' are and was trying to find someway, anyway, to flip the trope and outline a book worth reading. What I ended up with was a story that so clearly resembled the human struggle, a story that ripped all that ugly in society out from the shadows and exposed it, that I had to stop. I told myself I stopped because 'I'm not a good enough writer' to get a book like that right. I didn't have it in me to take that book on. Maybe five, ten, years from now it could be a possibility, but not today. The truth was, I was scared. The hardest book for me to write, I guess you could call it a genre if you want, would be one that mattered.
Well that is half of what I was looking for. I know that I am allowed to read it same as any other, perhaps it falls back to not being able to find anything that pops out at me, if you will. I will admit to my ignorance in using the marketed demographics as a base for my initial inquiry, as I can't know every thing. And every time I ask for a recommendation on a book or two in the genre, it is never addressed. So how about it, got anything to share on that end?
As a writer and consumer of genre romance novels, I do not consider The Notebook or Wuthering Heights to be romance novels (I can't speak to Jane Eyre as I've never read it). In the eyes of most genre romance publishers, a romance novel must have a HEA (Happily Ever After) or HFN (Happy for Now) ending. This is traditionally referred to as the Romance Covenant, wherein readers have trust in the author that even though they are going to be put through the emotional conflict, a happy resolution is guaranteed. Harlequin: "All of our series romance titles feature a strong central romance. A sustained conflict between the hero and heroine leading to a Happily Ever After is at the heart of every story." Crimson Romance: "While your work can include other genre elements, Crimson Romances must focus first and foremost on a couple’s emotional journey together towards love. Romances, by nature, must be between consenting adults of any gender, race, creed, etc., and have a happily-ever-after or at least happy-for-now ending." Evernight Publishing: "All sub-genres of romance need to have a HEA or HFN ending." Less Than Three Press (my publisher): What we accept:Happy for now (HFN) and happily ever after (HEA) endings. What we do not accept: Tragic or ambiguous endings Dreamspinner Press: Where the men are hot, the romance is rockin’, and there’s always a happily ever after. Romance Writers of America (RWA): Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending A Central Love Story: The main plot centers around individuals falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work. A writer can include as many subplots as he/she wants as long as the love story is the main focus of the novel. An Emotionally Satisfying and Optimistic Ending: In a romance, the lovers who risk and struggle for each other and their relationship are rewarded with emotional justice and unconditional love. This may seem nitpicky, but it's a hot-button issue for a lot of romance writers and publishers - my Twitter feed flames up on this topic at least once a quarter. This is not to say that books with a heavy emphasis on a romantic storyline and tragic endings don't sell well and have tons of readers, of course. But I and many others would not categorize them as romance novels per se.
What's your preferred genre that you enjoy - Fantasy? Suspense? Crime/Mystery? I'd be happy to recommend some titles to you, though they would likely be LGBT romance since that's what I'm most familiar with these days.
Can't Hide From Me by Cordelia Kingsbridge: https://riptidepublishing.com/titles/cant-hide-from-me Charles Hunter’s team is on a mission to extract an unidentified ATF agent from an undercover job gone wrong. All they’ve got to go on is the rendezvous location—until Charles recognizes the ex he hasn’t seen in years. Their “simple rescue mission” is about to get a lot more complicated. For Ángel Medina, adjusting to life after his cartel nightmare is hard enough without confronting memories of a failed relationship. All he wants is a fresh start. But when a violent stalker lashes out from the shadows, Ángel realizes his nightmare is far from over. As the stalker’s obsession escalates and bodies start dropping, Charles and Ángel are thrown together in a desperate search for the culprit. Tempers flare and old passions reignite, drawing them back into the same turbulent relationship that once ended in disaster. But the stalker isn’t letting go—and the next strike might hit straight through the heart. Cut & Run by Abigail Roux: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001H0GCRM/?tag=writingfor07a-20 A series of murders in New York City has stymied the police and FBI alike, and they suspect the culprit is a single killer sending an indecipherable message. But when the two federal agents assigned to the investigation are taken out, the FBI takes a more personal interest in the case. Special Agent Ty Grady is pulled out of undercover work after his case blows up in his face. He's cocky, abrasive, and indisputably the best at what he does. But when he's paired with Special Agent Zane Garrett, it's hate at first sight. Garrett is the perfect image of an agent: serious, sober, and focused, which makes their partnership a classic cliché: total opposites, good cop-bad cop, the odd couple. They both know immediately that their partnership will pose more of an obstacle than the lack of evidence left by the murderer. Practically before their special assignment starts, the murderer strikes again – this time at them. Now on the run, trying to track down a man who has focused on killing his pursuers, Grady and Garrett will have to figure out how to work together before they become two more notches in the murderer's knife. Shattered Glass by Dani Alexander: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00741MBZU/?tag=writingfor07a-20 A male prostitute, a mangy cat, a murder and an obsession that threatens his career, his impending marriage and his life. Nothing is going as planned for Austin Glass. Austin Glass seems to have it all, A loving fiancee, a future with the FBI and a healthy sized trust fund. At least on the surface. He also has a grin and a wisecrack for every situation. But the smile he presents to the world hides a painful past he’s buried too deeply to remember, and his quips mask bitterness and insecurity. Austin has himself and most of the whole world fooled—until he meets a redhead in a pair of bunny slippers. As events unfold in the biggest case of his life, Austin’s carefully planned future unravels, and he finds himself pushed into making quick, life-changing decisions. But can he trust himself or anything he feels, when each event seems to be just a series of volatile reactions? Happy reading!
They do. In fact, if I were to create my own categories of fiction, there would only be three or four genres. Romance would be one of them, and it would include most of what we currently call romance and most of what we currently call fantasy.
