Thank you for the well-documented post. And you've hit on why I'm not really a fan of genre Romance, although, like @Jupie, I'm a sucker for a love story. But if I pick up a book KNOWING that the two people in the central relationship are going to have a happy ending or a happy for now ending, or whatever you call it, that spoils it for me. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just that it puts me off. I would rather the relationship in the story take its own course, and resolve itself without having to channel it into 'happy.' Many of the greatest love stories we can name did not have happy endings. Again, people who read Romances do enjoy them, and I accept that many writers are very skilled at writing them, at making the characters believable—even memorable—and the dialogue sharp and effective, etc. It's just that knowing the ending before I start spoils it for me. There is also the very common hate/love split in Romance plots that I find irritating, especially when we also know the happy ending is inevitable. They are attracted to each other but they don't like each other—they swither—they do, they don't, they do, they don't—they might, they might not—but of course they DO ...eventually.' I find that too predictible a course of plot to enjoy it much. But isn't that the type of story most modern readers expect when they pick up a genre Romance? (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) I have read Romances in the past where the central conflict didn't come from doubt about feelings, but instead came from outside obstacles to the characters' relationship. (Mary Stewart wrote several of these.) I found these a lot more enjoyable to read, even though I also knew what the ending would be. Why? Because the characters didn't dither around about how they felt. I could root for them to overcome their circumstances, rather than just wish they'd make up their minds. It's not just Romance that creates specific expectation as a genre. Imagine a genre Mystery that never got solved? Folks would be fuming. People pick up Mystery with the expectation that not only will the Mystery be solved, but the author has issued a challenge to the reader to solve it themselves, before the end. My mother-in-law was a huge fan of Mysteries, and she got so much pleasure from matching wits with the authors she read. As in Romance, it's the journey in a Mystery that matters. Readers of formula genres know what they'll be getting, and just enjoy seeing how it all happens. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing to say that the writers aren't skilled, or don't create believable and memorable characters, within excellent settings. If I do enjoy a genre Romance or Mystery, it's because they contain good characters and settings and are well-written. For me, it's the inevitability of the result in a lot of genre fiction that makes me less enthusiastic about reading it, and completely uninterested in writing it. I am a big fan of books where the ending is satisfying, but not expected. It can be a happy one or a not-so-happy ending. But I don't want to know what the ending will be before I start. ....................... As far as myself, the one genre I would LOVE to write in and know I never will is hard Sci-Fi. I don't have the knowledge or the skill to acquire the kind of expertise I would need to write great hard Sci-Fi. My favourite Sci-Fi writers are or were actual scientists, who were merely taking what they know to another level. What if this goes wrong in future? What might this give us in future? Etc. I find that sort of thing fascinating to read. Damn. However, as somebody who mastered basic arithmetic with difficulty and never moved beyond it, my Physics, Chemistry and other science skills are zippidy-doo-da. So while I love reading and thinking about hard sci-fi, I could NEVER write it without handwaving most of the basics. Damn.
Thank you Laurin that's a really helpful post. The three I mentioned have love as a central theme but not all of them are happy endings. Wuthering Heights is probably more of a gothic, but it's one of the best dark love stories ever told I think. I suppose it is unorthodox in many ways and shows the dangerous side of extreme passion and infatuation but there is love there as well. I'm surprised Notebook doesn't fit that category, suppose it's a tricky one over if it's happy or not. I guess for me I was looking at it where romance features heavily in it and is the main focus. I suppose I should read with two hats, one as Romance and one as romance. Like Jannert I probably don't want to know it's all a happy ending. Well, I enjoy a good love story at least. Genre has its uses, but I just read all sorts and many of them overlap.
I'm not passive aggressive, I'm frustrated (not passively, I don't think) at people who know zilch about my genre making stupid generalisations about it. I don't recognise the nonsense dialogue Friederich Kugelschreiber came up with as resembling anything I've seen in a romance book, and of course I'm going to challenge it when you come along claiming he's right because you've read a lot of romance and have seen that kind of dialogue. When challenged, it turns out you've seen bad dialogue in a bunch of non-romance books and won't accept that, actually, you HAVEN'T seen that kind of dialogue all over the romance genre. And yes, I'm frustrated and annoyed with your refusal to admit that. Because I'm sick of ignorant people telling me what's wrong with my genre. I've even been told, "But you can actually write... why are you wasting it on romance?" as if it's a genre only for people not good enough to write others. And that kind of rubbish comes from a) misogyny and/or b) ignorance. Since you've asked for details of exactly why you're wrong, here you go - not that I think it'll make any difference, since you're so convinced you're an authority on the subject... I asked you for examples of bad romance books that have been "widely publicised" (your claim) and you listed a bunch of fantasy and other non-romance books and a couple of obscure romances. You've since done the same thing again - list non-romances as romances. But your "reason or cause" is that some fantasy books have bad dialogue and some other non-romances have good dialogue that you enjoyed. How on earth does that justify generalisations about romances? Sure, but we don't have to give it any weight or credence, which is what you're insisting. Why would I listen to your opinion of the romance genre when you've read hardly any romances and don't understand what constitutes a romance book? 1. Some things are subjective, like good or bad. But it's plain objective *fact* if something is a romance or not, and without establishing what's a romance and what isn't, how can we discuss the quality of romance books? 2. Yes you have. It's unfair to argue that a genre has plenty of bad books when you've read hardly any and don't know which books belong in a genre and which don't. Maybe. But you haven't even read 15, and haven't read widely enough to know what a romance even is. Yeah sure, I can believe that someone who thinks The Notebook was a romance has done extensive research into the subject. Because romance authors and readers hear this crap all the time from people who don't know what they're talking about. Yes, but only one of us is qualified to have an informed opinion on the genre, and it isn't you.
I am worried about this thread derailing and catching flames pretty soon. Please, cool down and perhaps get back onto the topic of the thread!
I haven't read the first and didn't care for Cut & Run, but Shattered Glass is a lot of fun. I really enjoyed Maritime Men and Anchors Aweigh by Janey Chapel... my Goodreads comments include: "I love this story. It's got such a great economy to it - every scene, every sentence, every WORD adds to the story, and to the reader's understanding of the attraction between these two men. I also love the characters - these are tough men training for a very tough job, and that comes through, but we also see that being tough doesn't mean that they're emotionless or insensitive." A Week to be Wicked by Tessa Dare... "Absolutely ridiculous, but I liked the characters and the writing enough that I was able to turn of my inner critic and just enjoy the story!" A Minor Inconvenience by Sarah Granger... "It was well-written, non-sensationalistic but still interesting, I cared about the characters, the setting was well done..." Anything by Ruby McNally... "Flawed characters, realistic conflict, satisfying-but-not-perfect sex... " The Society of Gentlemen series by KJ Charles Seven by Adrienne Wilder... "I liked it a lot. I wish the main couple hadn't been quite so 'destined' for each other... I really don't care for that trope. And I admit I skimmed a lot of the theory behind the special powers. I don't really care about all that stuff. But I liked the characters and the world-building (the parts I read!) and the ending was definitely satisfying." The Duchess War by Courtney Milan... "I liked it. Good characters, good conflict, good dialogue... Good." The Enlightenment series from Joanna Chambers... "I really liked this. Good characters, intriguing setting, hot (though not extensive) sex scenes. And it's great to read a m/m romance where the character is in the closet for something more compelling than just being shy or not wanting to let down his granny. In this setting, being gay could ruin someone or even put him in jail, and that definitely adds a compelling (and sexy) ribbon of danger." Glitterland by Alexis Hall... "I really liked this! Some memorable/stirring writing, some great characters, and I didn't even mind it that one of the MCs spoke in phonetically written dialect the whole time!" etc., etc., but it's already taken me quite a while to put this truncated list together (my internet sucks). My Goodreads list is at https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/3824610?order=d&page=1&sort=rating&utm_campaign=mybooksnav&utm_content=mybooks_cta&utm_medium=web&utm_source=homepage and you can generally get a good idea of what's a romance by the covers/titles...
I've got to disagree strongly on Can't Hide From Me. With the caveat that the author is a friend and mentor of mine (though we became so well after I became a fan of her writing - she published multiple novels online before going pro), I think she's a very good writer indeed. Certainly she's someone that I personally look up to and emulate as an author, for whatever that's worth. She's got a 5 book series from Riptide coming out over 2017-2018 that I'm really looking forward to reading. Admittedly Cut & Run was not a personal favorite of mine due to all the head hopping, and although I got through the first book I was not inspired to read the rest of the series. It's very popular in it's niche (m/m romance) though, and based on my social media feeds I know more than one reader who thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. I don't think the writing is brilliant or anything, but it got the job done for me for the one book at least.
Hey nobody tells this guy what he will and won't like. So don't jump the gun there buddy-boy. @Laurin Kelly Thanks for the rec. on some books. I have saved them for now, as I have stack I need to get to. So will be definitely be giving them a go. Thanks again.
Enemies to friends is certainly one of the more popular tropes in romance (and one of my personal favorites to read and write), but there are also plenty of romances where the couple just plain hits it off from page one. At Your Service by Ariel Tachna is one I read most recently along those lines - it's nothing earth-shaking but was a very sweet read to pass an evening with IMO. In regards to the Romance Covenant, I do get that for many readers the predictability of the ending hampers their enjoyment of the genre. But how I feel, and what I've gathered from some other romance readers is that the predictability isn't boring, it's comforting. When I read romance, I do it in a very escapist way - in real life I can encounter loss, tragedy or trauma at the drop of a hat, but when I'm immersed in a romance novel I have the joy of total relief from anxiety that things aren't going to work out for this couple I've come to root for, and I'm going to be left disappointed and sad. If someone recommended The Notebook to me as a romance novel I can guarantee you it would be the last time I ever took a reading recommendation from that person seriously. It's like those trailers for the Bridge to Terabethia movie where they made it look like a cute Harry Potter-esque movie, and anyone who hadn't read the book walked in with no idea that it has an extremely sad and tragic ending. If you say "OMG Laurin I read this awesome romance novel you should really check it out" and it ends with one of the main characters dead or dying, or in any kind of a depressing state at the end of the book I am not going to be a happy camper.
You can have the greatest love life in the world, but unless tax payers get their act together and insist we fund more research on either longevity or achieving the singularity, that love life is not going to last forever. I think romances like the notebook or a walk to remember or Romeo and Juliet are the greatest romances because they pierce themselves with a sword and tell you they are done. Sad endings ensheathe love affairs, ensuring they live on in our hearts.
Fun fact--I LOVE romance films. Bitter Moon, Blue Valentine, perfect Sense, Lost in Translation, the End of the Affair, I Love You Philip Morris
Weird, possibly unexpected fact: Although I almost exclusively read romance novels, romance/romantic comedy is one of my least favorite movie genres. And while I don't like to read Sci-Fi, I do enjoy many Sci-Fi movies. I'm a weirdo.
That is an interesting idea. But there is this sort of idea where people are supposed to have evolved into a different form of government. Although Star Trek's federation government is essentially late-stage communism. But inter-planetary space travel still comes with a ton of world building. And I don't want to do the homogenous single-culture planets like I always give sci-fi writers crap for doing. So if I ever forayed into it, there would be a ton of brainstorming. Many blank printer pages would be taken up. xD
Upon further reflection, I have found that my most difficult genre to write in must be "anything even remotely tolerable in quality", because I can't seem to do it. My tears of disappointment will have little effect on the salinity levels of the thread though, don't worry- after the mini flame war over something as meaningless as poorly written dialogue, my tears cannot compare to the salt found within those posts. Back on topic, I am not sure why I appear to be incapable of writing anything good, but I hope to anything/ everything that may or may not be holy that it won't last.
Just continue trying (practice doesn't make perfect, but it leads to improvement, which is often quite marked) and read well-written books and poems.
Anything that's not Fantasy, seems weird for someone who writes horror and Sci-fi too, but I struggle with those, it takes me far longer than normal to write them.
I think, having just read through this whole thread, that Romance (no, I have reasons!) would be my worst genre to write in because of the above-mentioned "happily ever after" or "happily for now" endings. The one story which I wrote that I classify as a romance (and I think @Tenderiser may have read) ends with the male love interest dead, and the female MC completing his bucket list item, which is what led them to nearly split up right before he was killed. I'm a depressive little fuck; I don't do happy endings. Which is why horror works for me. A lot of the horror that I write is what I classify as "mundane" horror, which to me means no ghosts, demons, curses, or Indian burial grounds, just human beings treating each other, well, horribly, and at the end of a horror story, nothing being left but a pile of rotting corpses is fine. Historical fiction, not just stories set in the past, but proper historical fiction, would be rough for me as well. I've got a habit of getting sidetracked on research of even the smallest of details, and to do something longer than a few hundred words that took place in a historical setting would probably sidetrack me for months.
