Sexualization? What does it mean to you?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GuardianWynn, Jul 23, 2017.

  1. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Fair enough. That I can agree on. :D
     
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  2. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I mean, while the act of self-harm is itself illogical, there's some kind of logical root - it's an expression of something else, often a frustration at a lack of control over the outside world / one's own life, or self-hate. So that kind of lines up with your character - it'd make sense for her to self-harm given she doesn't have control over her life and probably isn't her own biggest fan. But why would she express this frustration by turning nudist? That's what doesn't follow for me. Why does she have such a strong association between humans and clothes when a dozen other things are held up as ways humans differ from animals - tools, language, complex society, commerce, agriculture ... If I'm reading this, I most likely think, "Why clothes unless the writer just specifically wanted to get her naked?"

    See, I don't get this line of thought either. She turns herself into a monster/animal by ditching her clothes so that ... her victims will be angry?

    And I don't see the logic here. Getting naked is probably the fastest way to prove you're a human - you certainly can't hide anything! Dressing herself in animal pelts or finding a way to obscure her face or make herself look inhuman seems like the more obvious way of signalling her inhumanity to me. It could still be shoddy armor that leaves her vulnerable to death in combat.
     
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  3. daleydale

    daleydale New Member

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    Izzy brings up a good point. Perhaps nakedness is not the most "animal" way that she could behave. BUT! I actually like your idea. It's very creative, and I think put together with everything else, it will make sense. You said it's the 4th book in the series, right? By then your reader and fans should understand the character well enough to know why she chose to be naked. You don't need to change it. And you don't need to worry about the sexualization.

    To answer your main question (which is really what this thread is supposed to be about, right? lol), I think sexualization depends on the person and the context. To a lot of people, naked = sexy, or like it was mentioned before, if you're naked you either want to have sex or you're going to bathe. It's a fine line between the. But what you do with that nakedness counts. If I'm naked but I'm just cleaning my house, my husband would not necessarily find this sexy. Well, let's be honest, he might the first few times, lol. But after a while, if I'm just naked all the time, it would become something less sexual and more normal. That's probably how nudists are able to get away with not having sex all the time lol. But as other people have said, it depends on what you think of as sexualized. Some people think being naked is sexualized. Some people think baring breasts is sexualized. Some societies think exposed skin of any kind is sexualized.

    For me, personally, I don't find simple nakedness sexy. But because of the stigma around nakedness, I experience a general discomfort associated with being around naked people with whom am I not intimate. Whether that's the manifestation of subconscious sexual tendencies or not, I couldn't really say, but most likely. Who knows? It's a very interesting question :)
     
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  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    To me, sexualization means that you take something that wasn't about sex, and you make it about sex.

    For example, human breasts exist for feeding babies, but our society has sexualized them to the point that many people disapprove of using them for their primary use.

    Supposedly the Victorians put little skirts around table legs, because they had sexualized legs ("limbs") to the extent that even furniture wasn't allowed to exist with naked legs. I rather hope that's just an historical urban legend.

    In the US, nudity is sexualized. Pretty much always. So even if your character doesn't have any sexual idea behind the nudity, observers will sexualize it. I don't know to what extent that would be true in other countries. Whether your readers sexualize it depends on the writing, but it's probably going to be a pretty difficult task to keep them from doing so.
     
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I did spot some of mine own logical inconsistancies while writing my original response. But this is why I love this. So I can grow! :D lol.

    Actually in another thread you gave me an idea about her too. Visually she has silver bone-like protrusions and in the other thread you gave me an explanation for why she had them. :D So thanks for that too. :)

    For the first thing you addressed. I think I had an answer for you.

    I mean, what other ways could she self harm? In a sense, she can't cut herself. She is a soldier. Self harm could be viewed as a direct act of betrayal.

    You could argue the same thing towards other things. But at the end of the day I think she can argue and win with the nudism. And lack of equiptment. She discards tools too. And yes, her logic is. "To die in battle isn't a betrayal. Leaving my weapons behind improves my odds of death in a non-betrayal context."

    I can see her master arguing this effect. But I think he would lose in the sense that she could argue back. Like I picture her saying.

    "I won without my gear. So I don't need it. I'll fight for you but I fight my way. And if you can't give me that then just kill me now."

    To the second issue. I don't think the connection is that clear. But I do see a connection. On that note. This is where I am torn. I am not sure if my expression has failed or my ideas have failed. I admit the possiblility of either. But to try and better describe the connection.

    It isn't that clothing specifically is what reminds her of a monster. Rather, she realized, she needed to become a monster. She cut her hair too. Not because short hair is monsterous but because, she needed to see a monster in the mirror. So, her self idenity needed to change. Tossing her favorite weapons(which she loved holding) and tossing her clothing was all a symbol of her transformation. Though you could easily argue different clothing would suit the job just fine. Yet no clothing is just an alternate version of different. lol.

    I was gonna yeild to your last point but someone in person saw it and made an interesting counter. Wearing a pelt may make her look animalistic, but it isn't a symbol of being animalistic. Animals don't wear other animals skin lol, except for humans. lol.

    And yeah, she has become animistic even to the degree that by tossing her weapons, she rips people apart with her bare hands now.
     
  6. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I like your thoughts. :D It is a good middle ground between the different concepts I am seeing.
     
  7. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    It really doesn't seem like you're that interested in doing anything but further justifying what you've already decided to do, and I'm not interested in repeating my points, so I'll tap out.
     
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  8. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    You're writing a novel, right? Not a movie, video game, or cartoon? No one is actually going to SEE her naked. You're going to have to find ways to continually remind the reader that she is indeed naked, and continually show how everyone reacts to it. Is she running on glass barefoot and other nastier things. It's not going to be sexy at all. It's going to be weird or possibly funny, and likely a pain in the ass.
     
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  9. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Yep. Though ironically I do have a concept art photo of her. Lol.
     
  10. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    As far as nudity being scary, regardless of gender, my only example is the Berserker tribes of pre Anglo-Saxon Britain. These people would charge into battle naked and covered in war paint in order to demoralize and promote fear in their enemy.

    Now whether a small, naked woman would be as frightening, that depends I suppose. I feel like there was some desire to make this character sexual though, at least in a minor way, maybe even subconsciously. Mostly in the fact that this woman is much smaller than average. I've only known one person in my life to weigh anywhere near 100lbs, and she still was ten pounds heavier than this character.

    I think one step toward making a someone less sexualized is to make them more realistic. Less than 2% of women are actually a "healthy" weight by men's sports magazine standards...that is, underweight. And less than 1% of them are actually as skinny as the photoshopped models in said magazine. I.e. emaciated.

    Having this character weigh so little and be so small seems to play to stereotype all on its own. I do realize you're wanting her to be strong, and have the size be way out of proportion to her strength, but I kinda think it's too much maybe? I don't know of anyone, without googling it, that only weighs a hundred pounds... I think bringing this person into a normal body weight and size would make it more believable in general maybe?

    This is also a huge issue that I've ran across personally. In the US at least, sex and nudity are symbiotic, can't have one without the other. In other countries not so much, Europe seems a bit more mature at least, but separating sex and nudity is very hard no matter who you ask. I tried writing a character once that was suppose to be breaking stereotypes and so-forth, long story, but her being nude in one scene simply did not get the reaction I was expecting. Suddenly she was sexualized and that was that. I scrapped the whole book actually, for many reasons.
     
  11. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I didn't mean hundred pounds as an exact, but more generally speaking. Plus she is short and petit. like 5 2 area. lol. And her strength is magical so her size doesn't restrict it. But yeah, I know it doesn't fit exactly, naked and scary would work better if she was some 400 pound monster! But I like the subversion of expectations too! lol. She is kind of ironic in that sense or as Trish said. She is less of a monster if you think about it. Yet she still internally refers to herself as a monster.

    Funny enough on this note. The real thought that got me thinking about this was someone suggesting I give her like shorts and a top just to make it easier. And the thought accured to me.

    If, her internal reasoning explains nakedness. THen adding clothes to her for the simply sake of hiding her true identity. Wouldn't that be more sexualized in the sense that the character choices are being made specifically in relation to her sexiness. Even if this case it was to try and hide the obviousness of it from an audience. Which again I thought would be ironic.
     
  12. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    I do get your point, wearing clothes though has more to do with modesty and self-respect than it does trying to be "sexy" (depends on the clothing I suppose). It's actually a conundrum in some respects. Someone that's naked would want to wear clothes though for more than one reason, one of which being warmth. Clothes aren't just for us to hide our nakedness, there's practical purposes as well. I personally wouldn't want to walk through the woods naked, even if no one was around for miles and it was hot outside. Thorns, branches, bugs, etc. I want my skin to be protected from these things, preferably by thick pants and shirt so if I do get caught on a thorn bush, at least the barbs would have to go through those clothes first before reaching me. Even animals have fur, and for good reason.

    Not all women, nor men, go around thinking of themselves as "sexy". Some do, but usually we regard these people as being shallow, arrogant and unrespectful. Sexuality is usually imposed by observers who find something to be sexual, and we wear clothes depending on how we want to be viewed. Low-cut tops, tiny skirts and high heels depicts the image that this person wants to be sexualized, and they can deny it till their face is blue, but that doesn't change it. Men can also be sexualized, but it's different, and it's not quite as common; the male form has a different way of being "sexy". A naked person isn't supposed to be sexualized, but it is, and mostly by the sexually repressed America. When Arnold walked into the biker bar naked in Terminator, it was pretty clear that he was supposed to be "sexy". There was a reason why he was naked though, and it wasn't choice or anything, it's just how the time travel worked. However, it was still sexualized.

    You need to have a very good reason why this person is naked, and if it's not the circumstance, then the mental motivation will have to be greatly overpowering the natural desire to be clothed. I suppose you could argue that they have lost all self-respect, but that's kinda' hard to sell, especially if they're still going to fight back in confrontation. Someone that low mentally is probably ready to also roll over and die. I guess I'm just confused as to the mental state portrayed here. Regardless, sex and nudity will be hard to separate. There's nothing inherently wrong either at the same time. You can simply write it this way, trying not to make this a sexual thing at all, then if people impose that on the character it's their fault. Which is kinda' like real life I suppose, "we" are the ones that impose sexuality on things. Nothing on it's own is sexual until it has been made so by someone. I'd just be prepared for many readers to impose that though...
     
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  13. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Good thoughts!

    That last point is another interesting one. Because her inner-conflict is kind of astounding to me. Which the more I think about it. The more I realize I have my own confliction of ideas. I mean I had stated fairly clearly that it is a form of self hatred, and I do think it is. Yet the more I think about it. That isn't the full story either. Like, she is essentially a slave, forced against her wishes to kill people she would normally never harm. As a result she feels like a monster. Thus she created an identity for herself. Or like a mask. But the point of the mask wasn't to hide herself from the pain. It was to embrace it. Or rather. By having a mask, she can easily see the moral line in which her true self hates. which is why her inner-conflict is astounding to me. To stare at your own moral line and to have to cross it every day but to never move it for the sake of your own feelings. The mental pain there.

    And yes, I agree that this idea doesn't require nakedness, but it as an artistic choice seems just as valid to me as any other. And to a degree, the extremeness that people would argue against actually seems to add to it. As its a choice, she would have never made before.

    Also the Terminator part. I loved that. That is a great thought and exactly why I love making threads like this. A chance to learn something else.
     
  14. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

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    Why exactly IS she naked to begin with?

    But I agree with what others have said, nudity isn't equivalent with sexuality. And beauty is in the beholder's eye, as the saying goes. What one would consider sexy another may not. :) As long as your character isn't going around flaunting her "assets" at every guy (or girl!) I think you will be ok. :)
     
  15. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    There is an entire evolution of her nakedness with shifting reasons and the such.

    But yeah, that is exactly why I started the thread because I can't think of her as a sexual character because to her its a meaningless gesture at this point in her life.
     
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  16. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

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    She's on a mission, she ain't got time for people to gawk at her. :D
     
  17. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    This is actually a plot point currently once though probably more than once.

    Where she was assigned to be an assassin and kill a specific person. So she was like. "Crap, I have to be stealthy?" so she essentially wore a coat.

    Her current preference to be naked doesn't mean she is stupid towards the reactions of others lol.
     
  18. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    I'm getting the impression that her nudity is an end rather than a means to an end. The change you're describing is such a drastic change for someone to take, and from what I can gather, it's being relegated to "backstory". Correct me if I'm wrong.

    If I am, then what does she do after her transformation? And how much of her do we get to know before her transformation?

    When I think of the rituals you're describing, I think of spirit quests and shit. A trial to achieve some sort of spiritual transcendence, or maybe a practice of religious discipline like self-flagellation.
     
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  19. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    If I understood you correctly. Yep, your right.

    Then again. We aren't talking about a main character. I dive deep into lore. A character that makes a five minute cameo? Odds are I have a full backstory on them just in case I ever want to use them again.

    Her role is actually a villain. So you would see her post transformation. Like way post. She had been this way for a while. But she has a nice moment with the MC. Her role would be like this.

    - Appears, attacks MC's friends looking for MC. Does a lot of damage.
    - Finds MC, fake out as no fight really happens.
    - She captures the MC and sort of talks to her. Giving a little of the backstory. In a sense, she cries. Finally letting out her feelings. Not exactly the only time she could have done this too. The point is her master is coming and the MC is being targeted by the master. She wants to save the MC from her fate.

    Which is where the backstory current version of her really collide. To see the monster and see the woman behind it that is crying everyday inside because of it. All is meant to add to the antipation/build up the master who is "on his way"

    But you had a great idea! She did have a unique culture. That was very honor based. I never thought that the clothing thing might be a litteral religious thing! Thanks!
     
  20. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

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    Oh, looks like I guessed a plot point by complete accident! :)

    Ok, so she goes on a stealth mission, so she decides that the best way to be stealthy is to be nude, am I correct?

    Lol, so I guess she isn't worried about being embarrassed then. :) But I wonder, how does her nakedness effect others around her?
     
  21. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Nope, she wore a coat so people wouldn't be gawking at her. lol.

    Well, if you mean like people she works with? Well, she is strong, violent and aggressive. They are silent! lol
     
  22. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

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    I'm assuming that anyone who saw her nude on her mission were killed soon afterwards? lol

    Lol, I would be silent too, wouldn't want to get a strong aggressive lady beating me up.

    Does her nudity give her a tactical advantage during fights?
     
  23. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Nah, it isn't that she needs to be a secret. It just, if your looking for someone in a crowd, And everyone is staring at you. Than the person you are after likely already sees you too. When she arrived anyone that saw her then was irrevent. Putting on clothes in front of them didn't harm her future chances.

    And nope, no edge, but not exactly a weakness either. Magic aguments her abilities. Including her durability. So she can catch a knife bare handed.
     
  24. AustinFrom1995

    AustinFrom1995 Active Member

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    Ah ok, thanks for explaining! I'm curious though, is her nudity because of some kind of honor system ("The true warrior can fight with nothing but their bare hands!") or is she from a culture that normally shuns clothing?
     
  25. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I don't mind re-explaining but since that one has been answered a few times in this thread. I decided to quote myself.

    Though, some of that I have had alternate ideas on since writings. But I think it was a bit more of a failure of expression than the actual idea.
     

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