Lady, There are some really basic errors in your scan. We'll as two Syllables? (Maybe in the U.K, but not in the U.S) - But a more jarring error is how you are stressing multi Syllable words (example: de-SI-r-ING). But, let us forget about words that have Ambiguous Syllables for a moment. I want you to re-read part two of my study, then -and you are going to love this one- I want you to scan the following word: "Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane" (Yes, this is a real word that could be used in a metrical poem by some crazy-ass poet.) Scan it. - Good luck.
Hmmmm... methinks braincells not fully engaged I was thinking back to our discussion re 'fi re' being two syllables - errrr... yes. Not sure what went wrong there. The Tap/estry,/ a strange.... Because a (a low stressed word) is after the -try-, -try- becomes more stressed than -es-. Di chlor o di phen yl trich lor o e thane Rescanned is this any better? De sir/ ing de sir/es of/ the flesh Feels like/ Fire in/ the in/ner thighs I want / to oil down/ his sou/ er skin, And have /a dance/ for ou er/ bodies/ pleasure, <--------ou-er His Skin/ a gainst/ my skin/ - oil/y skin! is the dash a breath pause? We’ll smile/ and, through/ ou er/ fire, dance! Dance, dance/, like mad/ men pray/ing to /the moon. A while/ it will take /for us /to pray And then/ dance ou er/ sou er dance /at night This mad/ness ne/ver made/ a lot /of sense.
Okay, Let us take a look at the Word Tapestry. TAP es-try would be how it looked in the dictionary, and I also stated that a syllable surrounding a stressed Syllable would be the weakest there could be. Now I think using the number system would better illustration this next point. The (2) TAP(4)/-es(1)-Try(2) (Iamb/Iamb) Do you see how -Try is slightly more stressed than es? This makes it a very weak Iamb (1/2) but an Iamb never-the-less. Now, for the word I gave you. Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane if you look in the Dictionary, this is what you will find. The Stressed Syllable, is bolded. Di-chlor-o-di-phen-yl-tri-chlor-o-eth-ane So now that we see where the stressed Syllable is, we know that on either side of it that Syllables are going to be very weak. So applying the same Idea from Tapestry, Di(1)-chlor(2)/-o(1)-di(2)/-phen(1)-yl(2)/-tri(1)-chlor(2)/-o(1)-eth(4)-ane(1) (Iamb/Iamb/Iamb/Iamb/Iamb (Hyper) - Also, I stated that a stressed-syllable in any Multi Syllable word will out-stress any single Syllable word (including a noun, and Verb) Max, Stand/ing next/ to Mike,/ is big /and strong. Notice how Max is unstressed? - This was the point of Part 2, and the part you need to understand in order to use 3-,4-,5- Syllable words.
No. In metrical writing, you cannot use a punctuation mark to create a stressed or unstressed beat. While this has been done in the past (like 400 years ago past), every critical essay I've read about meter has looked down on this practice. -
Oh, crap. Well that was a groan moment for both of us... It's humbling to discover that although I've been writing 'poetry' using meter for years, I am still in diapers. Seriously. Yes, when I say the word aloud the syllable -es is swallowed and barely audible. That's a good example. I'll add this to my growing folder of notes. - I would have stressed Max to give emphasis purely because of the comma. *I think the 'number system', highlighted above, works better (for me). - I need to research this further and reference a dictionary more. Thanks for your patience, OJ
Lady, I have to take a few days to catch up on some other work I am falling behind on. (My blog, and I am working on a verse Novel that I am aiming to complete by Christmas.) Here are your two assignments. Scan this Poem, The Kraken by Lord Tennyson. Below the thunders of the upper deep, Far, far beneath in the abysmal sea, His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee About his shadowy sides; above him swell Huge sponges of millennial growth and height; And far away into the sickly light, From many a wondrous grot and secret cell Unnumbered and enormous polypi Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green. There hath he lain for ages, and will lie Battening upon huge sea worms in his sleep, Until the latter fire shall heat the deep; Then once by man and angels to be seen, In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die. - And Write 10 lines more lines, and practice using 2-,3-, even 4- syllable words in it. You need to get this aspect under control before you move onto Variations and Substitutions. -OJB
thanks OJ. I need breathing space to research and study this in more depth, and absorb. Thank you for your patience, it is appreciated. I still can't believe how complex meter is.
It is just as complex as Grammar. At high levels of Metric and high levels of complicated syntax there is a very interesting 'dance' that occurs. Paradise Lost -which I'll be doing a study to finish up my look at meter- is where you see Meter and Syntax really pushed to their limits.
OJ to start with I am only going to identify and then bold the stressed syllables. The Kraken by Lord Tennyson. .......................4 Below the thunders of the upper deep, Far, far beneath in the abysmal sea, His ancient, dreamless, un in va ded sleep The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee A bout his shad o wy sides; above him swell Huge sponges of mil len ni al growth and height; And far away into the sickly light, From many a wondrous grot and secret cell Unnumbered and e nor mous pol y pi Winnow with gi ant arms the slum ber ing green. There hath he lain for ages, and will lie Bat ten ing upon huge sea worms in his sleep, Until the latter fire shall heat the deep; Then once by man and angels to be seen, In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die. - Let's see how I get on above first
I didn't realize this had an Alexander line, but I'll address that. - Below the thunders of the upper deep, (Correct). Far, far beneath (4) /in (3) the (2)/ (1) aby/smal sea, ( Almost. This line is rather nasty, 'articles' are just about the lowest thing there is. Prepositions are 'slightly' more stressed than articles. So the line will scan the following: Spondee/Iamb/Trochee/Iamb/Iamb. This line really shows the power of Rhythm. See how the Stresses are descending -Ive' numbered them-? They are 'sinking to the bottom' just like how the poem is talking about sinking into the ocean. This is really an advanced idea, but this does show the power of meter, and how even Rhythm can be metaphoric.) His anc/ient, dream/less, un/invad/ed sleep (correct) The Krak/en sleep/eth: faint/est sun/lights flee (Correct) About/ his shad/owy sides; above him swell (Okay, you've scanned this line correctly, but it is not an anapest in there. Remember our talk about diff-er-ence and Diff-rence? That is what he is doing with shadowy =Shad wy. The reason Elisions kinda died out is some poets misused them, and made some words impossible to pronounce. The most famous example is pronouncing 'Heaven' as one syllable.) Huge spong/es of /millen/nial growth and height; (Same idea as the line above.) And far/ away/ into /the sick/ly light, (Correct) From man/y a wond/rous grot/ and secr/et cell (You bolded from, no. The y a is meant to be pronounced as 1 syllable. In the past when they had two unstressed vowels, they would merge them together. This practice is no longer done today.) Unnum/bered and/ enorm/ous po/ly-pi (correct) Winnow/ with gi/ant arms/ the slumb/ering green. (You found all the stresses. Slumbering = Slumb . ring) There hath/ he lain /for ag/es, and /will lie (Correct.) Battening/ upon/ huge sea/ worms in/ his sleep, (Incorrect. I don't care about you not seeing the Elisions. But your scan of Battening is incorrect. BAT-en-ing would have been the correct scan. Really he is saying Bat-ning. Also, Compound nouns -which sometimes are spelled as two words- the first word always takes the stress the second acts as a weak unstressed. ) Until /the latt/er fire/ shall heat /the deep; (Correct) Then once /by man/ and ang/els to /be seen, (Correct) In roar/ing he /shall rise /and on /the surf/ace die. (Correct. This is called an Alexander -a 6 beat line.- It is used in IP to show something of great magnificence, or -in speech- someone of great power. ) A few hic-ups, but overall, really good. I believe the notes I've added will give you a lot to think about. All these topics: Alexander Elisions. Falling Rhythm (and raising Rhythm) Compound words. Will be covered after Idylls but in great detail. You did good. -OJB
Although I attempted to assign a number (points system) to the stresses I lost the plot! Then I tried to research on Google, no luck. It helps if you know the technical term when consulting google. I had not considered how rhythm could be metaphoric. This is a good example. So how do we know the poet's intent when scanning? I don't understand. Is man-y one syllable or two? or are you saying: y + a are counted as one syllable? Careless mistake. On my handwritten copy I have 'Bat' as the stressed syllable. good point about compound nouns. I've made a note of that Yep, and a lot to remember. OJB said: ↑ And Write 10 lines more lines, and practice using 2-,3-, even 4- syllable words in it. You need to get this aspect under control before you move onto Variations and Substitutions. -OJB I'll post this next.
What a great question! The answer is rather simple: The first line of the poem (which scans IP) informs the reader of the type of Rhythm scheme that will be used. Iambic Pentameter and Anapest meter are two different types of Meter. Had the first line had an Anapest, I would know this was an Anapest poem. Knowing what type of Rhythm is being used informs me what to expect. Now, in longer works such as Narratives and plays, they do sometimes switch meter for Dramatic effects, but this is a short poem. This is what I am saying; however, THIS PRACTICE IS NOT USED IN TODAY'S METER. This is a convention of old, and as poetry evolved, more and more poets wanted meter to match natural speech. - I must admit Lady, your questions give me great insight into what I need to add in my blog later on (I've even edited in some of our conversations into a few of my current blog post as I thought the discussions were very good. I might have edit the OP in this thread to inform people to read the whole way through before posting.) -OJB.
OJB I need to sign off now but this is what I've written and scanned so far. Am I on the right track with the numbering system? I have pages of notes scattered all over my desk and can't find the note I made on verbs and nouns. The mar/tians land/ed on/ the froz/en lake--- iamb/iamb/iamb/iamb/ iamb ----3-------2-----2--------4--------1----- I won/der if/ it was/ a gen/ u ine ------ iamb/iamb/iamb/iamb/ iamb -------3---------2-------------4-------2-----3 mistake/ or did/ their sat/ el lite/system --------- iamb/iamb/iamb/iamb/trochee --------- lead them/ all as/ tray so/ they land/ed on/ ------------ iamb/ trochee/spondee/iamb/iamb the froz/en lake/and sink/ with out/ a trace/ iamb/iamb/iamb/iamb/ iamb --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still WIP 3-----2---2----1-----------3-----------4---------4 For tun/ ate ly,/ for them/ they lived/to tell the sor/ry tale/on re/turn ing/ to Mars
Sigh... I do not believe you are ready for the numbering system yet, but to just scan 1 of your lines. I (1) won (4)/der(1) if(2)/ it (1) was (2)/ a (1) gen (4)/ u (1) ine (2) The numbering system is relative to how each syllable interacts with each other, it is not a definitive system. I've discussed word importance and syllable stresses with you, but I've not discussed Rhetoric devices even in the slightest (which are a big part of Meter), nor have I covered Promotion or Demotion in my Blog yet. I'll give you an overview of how the blog will progress after I finish Idylls of the King. 1. Promotion and demotion. 2. The numbering system. 3. A look at Double Iambs. 4. A look at Spondees. 5. A Look at the Trochee. 6. A look at Feminine endings. 7. A simple Rhetoric device. 8. Compound nouns and Idiomatic verbs. 9. The Alexander. More... to come. As you can see, there is a lot of area to still cover.
*Groan*... I thought you wanted me to use the numbering system when you swore at me with Di(1)-chlor(2)/-o(1)-di(2)/-phen(1)-yl(2)/-tri(1)-chlor(2)/-o(1)-eth(4)-ane(1) (Iamb/Iamb/Iamb/Iamb/Iamb (Hyper) No, I am ready. I can see the benefits but did not know how to apply in practice okay, I think the danger of introducing more advanced devices (for me),such as the numbering system, when I was still grappling with the basics is that my enthusiasm sent me off on a tangent. The overview is helpful. This is really, useful. OJ. I will update my post above and let's start again.
