White Characters Dominating Fantasy Worlds

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by MilesTro, May 25, 2015.

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  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, I totally agree that there are countless fictional works where Bechdel has zero reason to be an issue.

    But I'm not sure if mine is one of them. Why is Ava a side note? Why haven't I written anything to speak of about the Dame? Why were the two characters that just turned up on the beach, both men? Why do I see women in the background, and why is it men that speak? Why is Irwen less interesting than Swietek? Why am I so much more comfortable with men pushing ethical boundaries, and not the same with women? Why didn't I even briefly consider making Meldryd a woman, when it would have been totally fine? Why why?

    I'm guessing that it's in large part because I'm used to strong female characters in fiction often being one strong female character, and a whole lot of men, and so that steers the car. And I could plop on an analyst's couch and spend a year talking about my mother and her impact on how I feel about women in general, versus specific individual women.

    I think that it's something to do some thinking about.
     
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  2. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    That sounds like a lot of good questions :)
     
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  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Yeah, I see your point. I do deliberately throw in female characters whenever I can, and I think it adds depth.

    And, damn, are you ever right about the "one strong female character" trope. God I hate it!

    So, good. Keep asking yourself questions, keep pushing yourself. It's good for the world, and for me ('cause I get to read the cool stuff you come up with!).
     
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  4. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak @BayView Would either of you like to see what I came up with in the Genderbending thread?

     
  5. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    Re-read this for me.

    According to VIDA’s research, the London Review of Books featured 527 female authors and critics in 2014, compared with just 151 men (14 fewer than in 2013.) The New York Review of Books displayed a similar imbalance, featuring an overall figure of 677 women to 242 men,
    and in other publications it was found that fewer than half the authors reviewed were women. Why is it that the male voice seems to hold more gravitas?

    In 2015, the author Catherine Nichols decided to do a little experiment to see if the publishing world really was as gender biased as the figures suggested. Firstly, she sent her novel to 50 agents using her own name and received 17 manuscript requests. But when she sent the same material to the same agents, using a male pseudonym, the novel was requested 2 times.

    “She is eight and a half times better than me at writing the same book,” wrote Nichols. “My novel wasn’t the problem, it was me – Brody the Dude Bro.”


    See the issue? Anyone can write anything with "According to some fuckwit's study" in front of it and have it be believed. I want to see the study. Not hear about it. If I take her or anyone on their word, I risk accepting their biased view at the least, or accepting an outright lie at the worst. Find me the actual study or just stop trying, because you're wasting both our times.
     
  6. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    A quick Google search gave me http://www.vidaweb.org/category/the-count/the-2014-vida-count/
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I just skimmed parts of it, but... I think there's a time for switching character genders, and at least for my writing style it's pretty early on in the process. There are the larger thematic issues you bring up, but there are also lots of tiny little details that need attention.

    Like, secondary character B could be male or female and still play the same role in the general plot (say, best friend who bounces ideas around with the protagonist). But the way the friend bounces the ideas, the word choices and perspectives and everything, will likely be influenced by gender. Not in ways that influence the plot, just in ways that affect the details. So a gender switch, for me, would require a complete rewrite, and I do NOT like rewriting!
     
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  8. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Fair enough.

    Though as a well-established addict of personality typing, I can say that there are a lot of ways that my Chaotic Evil ESFJ woman (Amy) more closely resembles my Lawful Evil ESFP man (Alec) than she does my Neutral Evil ISTJ woman (Charlie) ;)
     
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  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I totally believe that, for all the fundamental stuff. I don't think the fundamentals change with gender.

    But, at least if you're writing a contemporary story, the way people interact will be different based on gender. Like, a chaotic evil man might use physical strength more, a chaotic evil woman might use her wiles. OR she might use physical strength, but then you'd have to spend some time sorting out how she got so strong, how other people perceive her strength, whether or not she's consciously rejected the "use her wiles" approach or it just won't work because she's so huge, or... whatever. It would come up in the interactions and stuff like that, I think.

    ETA: I'm a female INTJ. I think that any woman with a T instead of an F is going to be spending at least some of her time fighting stereotypes. (Possibly any man with an F instead of a T would be in the same situation? I'm not sure). But if I were doing a character study of myself (I can't imagine how bored I'd have to be for that to seem like a good idea) I'd need to address the stereotypes I encounter and how I react to them. So that would be something that would come into play for a female INTJ character as well. Right?
     
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  10. Reollun

    Reollun Active Member

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    Well, you are right I suppose, but this could be explained by the fact that most people writing fantasy aren't paying attention to subtle social, political, racial and cultural differences. We're all consciously and subconsciously adopting patters that we're accustomed to.

    Tolkien's works, for example, were sometimes called 'Eurocentric' and even 'Racialist' due to the obvious discrepancy between (noble) Western lands and the dark peoples of the south and east dominated by Sauron. But once you delve deeper into it and examine Tolkien's works, you find out he was not merely translating real history to his secondary world, but was rather inspired by the tradition of his country and European mythology in general. Tolkien was English and inspired by Anglo-Saxon culture and history and Germanic mythology, which is evident in his works.

    In the end, I think it has to do with the individual and his creativity. Though, to be honest, I remember some novels with many different races of Elves.

    That's true. But still, most fantasy novels rely heavily on medieval England and France in the High Middle Ages. That's why it's not surprising that whites are dominating medievalsque fantasy. Then again, we can't expect the majority of the writers in the genre to go into finer differences of medieval life. Most of these worlds are filled with women in leather garments, dragons and orcs. :-D
     
  11. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    Okay, first of all, that's not the study. This is. At least, it's the results from the study, so I can't comment on methodologies. But that's not the point. The point is that I had to ask you three times for the source, and you gave me the wrong one. Where's the intellectual integrity?

    Understand that I'm not of the position that there's no bias against female authors in the publishing business. I want to know why. All this author does is blame the patriarchy, which is so incredibly unhelpful for furthering the discussion. And since she neglected to mention what her book was and what publishers she was submitting to, there's really nothing to discuss. She's using descriptive statistics to infer a causal relationship. The author only cares about her agenda. But I'm tired now, so I'll say my piece and head on my way.

    Thread should have ended here, but where's the fun in that, right? What really gets me about this whole discussion isn't the rampant fallacies, broad and baseless assertions, or kindergarten-like argumentative skills (seriously, just like, read a book on introductory critical thinking), but the accusatory implications contained in the arguments for having a cast of characters that isn't "diverse enough". I personally don't give a shit if someone writes a book whose cast is 100% androgynous demi-fluid horse kin, but I sure as fuck won't be buying it. What I do care about is this idea that I or my writing is somehow morally wrong because there aren't enough women talking about things other than men. That was not a standard set by me. What I do with my stories and my characters is my business. Things like the Bechdel Test, to my mind, are a little silly. People can consume whatever media they want based on whatever criteria they choose to set -- I won't stop people from following these kinds of rules. I might deride them because I find their life choices amusing, but I won't dare try to stop them. Don't like a piece of media? Don't engage with it. But don't try to make me adhere to your standards and diversity quotas. That's thought policing, and it will backfire. Money talks, ya'll. Support the people who are doing the things you like, and even do a bit yourself if you're able, but don't start crying victim when people find the rainbow palette cast just a bit too contrived. Anyway, I'm off to do other shit. If I offended anyone, feel free to blow it out your ass.
     
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  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @Foxxx

    Here's why you're wrong. This isn't really a thread about writing. It's a social policy thread. That's why it's in the debate section and not the writing section.

    So, if one's agenda is social--to provide inclusion and promote certain constructive causes--then yes, there SHOULD be more diversity in entertainment. This is being completely logical.

    It's got nothing to do with the quality of the entertainment or the quality of the writing. This is a thread about social causes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  13. archer88i

    archer88i Banned Contributor

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    /gag
     
  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Well, it was in the debate section. Now it seems to be back in the Fantasy section. Somehow.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Eh. Art is about the world. When you simplify the art, smooth out the textures, cut out what challenges you or makes you uncomfortable, by eliminating much of what that world has to offer, you're hurting the art.
     
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  16. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    That's EXACTLY what you do when you write fantasy. Finally, someone agrees with me!!!!!
     
  17. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Still grinding that axe, huh?
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, I totally don't agree. I have a better understanding of your issue with fantasy, so that's good, but I don't agree.
     
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  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    That makes you logically inconsistent. Fantasy simplifies and smooths and all that other fantastic stuff you were just saying. You can't have it both ways.
     
  20. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Opinion=/=Fact.

    Fantasy doesn't necessitate any of those things, and it wouldn't be very hard to find individual work in other genres that does have said attributes.
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'll be back to discuss this when I have a keyboard. Assuming that this is something that you seriously want to discuss, instead of snark food. It sounds like it is, but.
     
  22. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    It does by definition.
     
  23. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I just want to say my point is very relevant to this conversation on various levels. The thread is about the fantasy genre, so we have to consider what fantasy genre means.


    Then we have the conversation about what is art and where/if social causes fit in.

    Personally, I think fantasy is a great place to champion social causes, because one doesn't need to worry about actual populations.

    What's bizarre is to say that art is best when it recognizes what the real world has to offer and that therefore it needs to include diversity... in a genre that by definition ignores what the real world has to offer.
     
  24. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Fantasy in no way has to ignore what the real world has to offer. Rather, it can add to it. Observations fantasy stories make about the human condition, morality, philosophy, theology, etc. are no less valuable than those made by work in other genres, and some of the specific questions posed only work in a speculative setting but serve to make a wider point that has worth in the real world.
     
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  25. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    You're talking about historical and science fiction. It's all in the definition.
     
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