Rejection, rejection, rejection...

Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by deadrats, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. RWK

    RWK Member

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    Maybe you'll sell a novel to a traditional publisher. Maybe you won't.

    If you get published, maybe it will sell. Or maybe the covers will come back for agency credit.

    Self-publishing can fail as well. And it can also succeed. But it takes skill as well, just different skills.

    Since you haven't tried the route, and still have not succeeded in your preferred effort, I would suggest you keep an open mind.

    In any case, BayView has the right of it: this is going nowhere. I'm out.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    So there aren't countless thousands of self-published books out there, a lot of them simply awful and a few of them pretty good? What part of that is incorrect?

    But isn't it the prospective buyer who has to understand those search engines and search the forums for help? A selling strategy that requires that the buyer do extra work doesn't sound like a winning strategy. If the buyer can try to find the gems from the hundred thousand plates, or he's presented with a small table of ten or twenty offerings that he knows will have a reliable level of quality, I think that most buyers are going to be around the small table.

    There's nothing wrong with knowing all the options, but I strongly suspect that there's an element of fluke to your success. I'm not saying that your quality isn't good and that your marketing isn't good. I'm saying that those things are necessary, but not sufficient.

    I think that if the book really is good, and it's not impossible in other ways (nonexistent genre, far too long, far too short, etc.) then your odds of getting a decent number of readers are higher with traditional publishing.
     
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  3. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    I think this is the most important thing.

    A decent number of readers. Not millions. But some number in the plural thousands, a decent reliable audience. Not huge, but if I can get that far then I'll be happy with myself, I'll feel like I've succeeded. Most of us don't have grandiose ideas about success. If I could make 20 grand a year from writing I would be over the moon. Not a vast amount, but (in this country anyway) a livable income, even if I did nothing else. That's what I'd consider successful.

    For some people success is simply getting their work out to anyone who wants it. And that's fine for them. But many of us, most of us in fact, want more. And while traditional publishing is nothing close to a dead cert, it offers the promise of reasonable success, assuming you make the grade for them. And thus most of us focus on making the grade. Self publishing promises nothing, it doesn't even really promise contact with an audience. It can be successful but with no promise your work could make no money ever, and have burned the chance to ever see that book in print now it's a proven loser.

    It's the difference between going to a bank for a business loan and having to convince a manager with your plan and your budget and all your paraphernalia of legitimacy; and borrowing the same money from a gangster. Borrowing from a bank may ask you to do many tedious things and may in fact tell you no. A gangster might get you up and running in two minutes flat but since you don't have to prove you know anything about running a business or that you can make money there's a good chance that no-one ever comes into your shop and you fail in three weeks.

    Traditional publishing sucks. I am the biggest critic of agents and the publishing business in general. But there isn't anything better. All that removing quality control has done (in both books as well as in music and video games and anything else where there are 'open ports' for publishing your stuff) is mean that the good ideas don't get noticed for a different reason. It puts the impetus on the reader to find the good books and almost no-one wants to do that, at least not continually for a long period.
     
  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Self publishing is not my answer to rejection. Plus, most of the bitching and moaning I've done here has been about the literary short story market. That's what I've got on submission. I'm still writing my novel. Still, I will do nothing with it before I self publish. It won't be the first time I've done nothing with a novel. I mean I tried. It didn't work out. But I'm a much better writer now and thank God my first attempt was never published. Publishing a novel will be great when I produce something great. I want a little greatness.
     
  5. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    I suppose in a strict sense self-publishing would mean you no longer get rejection letters :p But yes, it's a point well made.

    I too have novels that for the time being I basically have no choice but to do nothing with. Either they are way outside the genre I'm writing now, or they were time sensitive or were tied to another work; there's reasons why they are hard to do anything with and why for the time being I'm putting them on the shelf. My writing has definitely gotten better, my ability to sell my work to agents has definitely gotten better.

    The story of my development as a writer has been the story of my compromising with what the market wants. I started off really very sure that I could get away with writing genreless works that only appeal to other addicts. I started off thinking that I could just ignore word limits because I was that good. I really believed I could write every story with a war crime of a downer ending because that's the kind of work that I like. And slowly but surely I figured out these things were getting in my way.

    I absolutely loved writing genreless books that I can take wherever I want but people don't want to read that. They like to know what kind of story they are reading before they start and I can hardly blame them for that. I edited more aggressively and brought my word counts down and that made my books tighter and more clearly focused, even if I couldn't spend forever meandering through a scene of dialogue. I finally remembered that I was writing for other people and at least moved away from overtly black endings and started thinking about how to end on a more positive note because apparently other people don't find nihilism and loss to be as romantic as I do. All of these have been compromises to the commercial world of writing. But in the end none of them really feels like that big of a deal. I definitely still feel like I'm writing the stuff that I want to write; but there is definitely a subset of books that I want to write that other people want to read and I'm focusing on that. Honestly I'm surprised it took me this long to figure out given how simply that boils down.

    All of my past ones are books that I'll do nothing with. But fortunately because I was always pushing towards traditional publishing I had to stop and ask myself what I was doing wrong. Now, I'm not exactly giddy at having to deal with constant rejection from strangers (I get enough of that in my personal life) but it makes you push harder and do better and overcome it. And I think this is an important part of making sure you become a better writer. Having something to strive against is a constant frustration, and I have very many times said here just how fucked up the relationship is between first time authors and agents and publishers. But still I had to strive and it made me better.

    It took a long time to get there but I did in the end and I have high hopes both for the book I'm editing (first one with an unambiguously positive ending) and the one I'm writing (first one that's unambiguously just a romance) and I think that one or other of them will get me there. And it'll have taken me a long time, way too long for my tastes. But having to climb the wall was the only thing that made me a good enough writer to be worth anyone else reading.
     
  6. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It happened again. Rejection. This time the editor said my story came real close. Still rejection.
     
  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Another rejection today. This one was just a form. Boooooooooo!!!!!!!
     
  8. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Dog poop. Paper bag. Lighter.
     
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  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Been away for a few days. Back with two new rejections. One was personal and the editor said nice things and that he would be happy to look at something else from me. I am submitting short stories. A lot of places use a submission manager, but my rejection came from the editor and the editor's email. Does this mean I can send a new story directly to him or should I still use the submission manager? This has happened a few times, and I still don't really know what is appropriate. The other rejection was just a form.
     
  10. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I'd say go through their normal route. If the editor liked your writing enough to take the time and personally send an email rather than use the submission manager, he might recognize your name if it comes up again.

    Had a very nice personal rejection come in the Friday before last. From what she wrote, I think the editor was simply disappointed a side character didn't end up having a bigger role. So after tightening up that story a little, I'm doing my first simultaneous submission. We'll see how that goes.
     
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  11. surrealscenes

    surrealscenes Senior Member

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    I would submit the regular way, then email the editor and let them know, while thanking them (again?) for encouragement.
     
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  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I've been rejected enough times that I always do simultaneous submissions unless the place says they don't allow it. Where are you submitting to? A lot of places will re-open their reading periods this fall. I've got twenty submissions out right now. There's more I want to submit. But I'm spending at least a day if not a week on my finished short stories to really make them shine before I send them out (again). Do you use duotrope?
     
  13. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    It's important to remember that "rejection" is the ground state of writers.

    If you are of a mind to go and look at how many publishers Ayn Rand got rejected by. It took her literally twelve publishers (not agents, publishers) to get her work out there. And the same for J K Rowling too come to that.

    But in the end if your work is good and well written then you can find a market.
     
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  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Beneath Ceaseless Skies and an untitled anthology from Indie Shelves Publishing. Most of the time I wouldn't consider the latter, since it only pays royalties and is just starting up, but novelettes are hard enough to find markets for as it is. I'd do more simultaneous submissions, but most fantasy markets don't take them, so it's challenging to find two markets that the story 1) is a fit for, and 2) takes simultaneous submissions.

    I don't use duotrope, but I have been using the Submission Grinder lately. It's good for discovering fitting markets, and the submission stats for each publication help you remember that most people are getting rejected, especially at the top tier.
     
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  15. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    Well said.
     
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  16. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    That's an interesting thought that rejection is our ground state. I'm submitting short stories mainly. Are they any good? Maybe. I've got quite a bit of encouragement along the way, but practically everything I write gets rejected and gets rejected way more than 12 times. I have one story that has probably received upwards of 50 rejections. My MFA thesis advisor loves that story. I guess it's why I continue to send it out. He even passed that story onto some lit mag editors he knows on my behalf. But nothing. So, does good work always find a market? I'm not so sure that's true. I think it's easy to throw in the towel long before you make it (if it will ever happen). And I think it's easy to think if we're just good enough it will happen. I average over 100 rejections a year for the past few years. Thanks for the encouragement. Sorry if I sound like such a downer... in the rejection thread.
     
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  17. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I'm still a fan of duotrope even though they charge now ($50 per year). I submit to literary journals and I found that it seemed like some weren't on the Grinder or had very few submissions reported so it wasn't exactly the sampling I was after. But there might not be such a difference with genre publications. Anyway, good luck with all your stories. You seem to be doing well.
     
  18. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Hell no. Excellent work doesn't always find a market either. It's a buyer's market if ever there was one. The supply greatly exceeds the demand.
     
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  19. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Got another form rejection. This place rejected me right after they closed submissions. Damn. I was hoping to get another one in if they didn't take the one I had sent.
     
  20. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Ah well, it takes more than just being a good writer to find your audience. There is the rub, really. Especially given the mechanics of the industry today. Because good isn't really what the whole industry is looking for, marketable is the important part. But that said eventually if you stick with it you will convince people to give your work a chance; that is one of the skills you have to develop. You have to treat submitting like your writing and craft and hone and improve that and get better at selling it until agents are salivating to hear from it.

    And even then rejection is forever our ground state. Because in the end we will always spend much much much more time being rejected than being accepted.
     
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  21. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    I've never been in this position before, but I hope that when it comes to it that I can take the heat. That is if I go through traditional means. I personally when it comes to intimate aspects of my life have a hard time with rejection. I've never been able to process it well. I think or would like to think when it comes to writing maybe one day I can experience rejection and understand it and learn from it as well as grow from it.
    My thoughts are if you are experiencing that much rejection and have that many projects out, maybe it's time to reel it in on how much you put out there for the time being. Maybe start smaller. Work on a few things and focus on those perhaps? Focus on the most important aspect of your writing and push that. See if you can tap that market before any others. When you do, move on from there and ride on prior success perhaps.
     
  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    There comes a point where one has to give up on trad pub and self publish
     
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  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    NEVER!!! :)
     
  24. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    It's a complex thing though. Without wanting to get too specific; if nothing you ever write gets any kind of traction then clearly something isn't where you want it to be. Because there are different levels between 'rejection' and 'success' and ideally you want to be progressing through them. If you are still just getting flat rejected at this point then you maybe need to look a little closer at why. It likely says more about what and who you are submitting to than anything else. But equally you do need to be getting better and better at selling yourself and your work, you need to be making damn sure that what you submit is really good and you need to come up with ideas that other people might want to buy into.
     
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  25. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    After coming oh so close at a dream publication with what I consider one of my best stories, I'm making a big change. This story has seen upward of 25 rejections, but it's a good story (according to many of the editors who have rejected it). I've never been told by an editor why this story didn't make the cut. I'm guessing there were just better options. So, big change. I'm working on it. Why does this feel so wrong? The few pages I've redone are already better, but this sure is killing my darlings if I've ever done so.

    And I got another form rejection on a different story. As long as I have a good number of submissions out and work that I feel good about, I can take the rejection. My answer to rejection has always been to write more, write better, and not to lower the standards of where I want to publish.
     
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