1. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    At What Point Does a Character Become Irredeemable

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by JPClyde, Aug 25, 2017.

    What actions and what thought process do they have to display to become, irredeemable as a character? Like no matter if I tried to redeem them, what they have done will be unforgivable? And does that make a bad character necessarily?

    I am writing a slice of life and one of my characters is about to take a wrong turn in life and make a mistake. A very big mistake. One that I find might be an irredeemable action. But my slice of life novels have always been in gray zones. People make mistakes. They make some terrible terrible choices in life, as we all have, but we're not villains or badguys.

    Some are. But not all. And those are usually the themes I like to play in my drama. I do not like generic black and white logic like that. We all make terrible mistakes, we all make mistakes that seem irredeemable, but we also go onto a better path bettering ourselves when we recognize those mistakes.

    What I fear is a character making a choice that readers or audiences might find so irredeemable she may not be able to recover anything redeemable about her character.

    So I ask, what actions does a character have to take to become irredeemable in your eyes? What are the things you simply cannot condone and no matter the redemption arc, you'll never forgive them.
     
  2. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Have a planned child, but I'm a rabid antinatalist :)
     
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  3. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    Not sure I am following.
     
  4. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Debate room territory, but in short, I view creating a child as worse than murder. It creates an entity that will suffer and die for no other reason than to stoke one's own vanity and "carry on the family line."

    Many people disagree with me on this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  5. archer88i

    archer88i Banned Contributor

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    You'll find that pretty much anything can be redeemed if a character dies for the right reason. Of course, death isn't a great career move...
     
  6. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    No one was going to die in my novel.

    And I will never forgive Snape and he died.
     
  7. archer88i

    archer88i Banned Contributor

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    lol! Well, some people are just vindictive, I guess. :)
     
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  8. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    Hahaaha. Lol. That I can be. But Snape, was a bully. He did nothing to encourage Harry. He did nothing to redeem himself in the story. Beside that 1 action. Oh boy.
     
  9. Moon

    Moon Contributor Contributor

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    Character raising a child he fathered by rape, torture then murder of the mother. Even if he made for a great father, he's still a sadistic piece of chit.

    In your case however, I'm almost sure your character isn't about to become that guy, so I'm not sure. Can you elaborate on this choice he/she is going to make? Would be easier to determine then.


    I don't.
     
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  10. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Agreed - most of the time redeemable or irredeemable for me is heavily based in context. What would be redeemable in one character/story could be absolutely unforgivable in another character/story. The devil's in the details for me.
     
  11. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I'd have to second this. There's a lot of context to take into account.

    Purposefully hurting someone - knowing what you're doing, having a choice, and doing it intentionally - is a pretty broad one, for me. I consider myself a pacifist so that's kind of completely antithetical to my whole thing. Hurting children or anyone you have power over is a bit more specific.

    I also think that someone can still be compelling without being likeable. Not everyone has to be redeemed.
     
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  12. Moon

    Moon Contributor Contributor

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    This, yes, very much this. I'm the kind of person who actually enjoys a well written antagonist. In fact, a lot of my favorite characters are "villains." Doesn't mean I like them as people, no, but as characters - yes. The worst feeling for a character I'd be worried about is indifference.
     
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  13. surrealscenes

    surrealscenes Senior Member

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    Everything and anything is redeemable, maybe not to society, but at least to the character.
    Whatever you write will be seen by some as so horrible it should never be put on paper, while others will shake their head and say 'I've done way worse'.
    Many stories are an internal search for redemption because the original act affected the character in a big way. Society may never know he killed his baby mama, but the guilt he carries makes him seek redemption.
     
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  14. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Or even to another character. The MC's of my second book are cold blooded assassins, and they definitely engage in murder and other violent acts that most people would consider a deal-breaker in a partner. But since they're both killers for hire, there's no cognitive dissonance there because they have the same moral code.
     
  15. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    For sure. And we can always page @Simpson17866 to talk about villain protags.

    Something else that comes to mind is perspective. I have a case where one character both physically and medically restrains another, and while he fully, genuinely believes he's doing the right thing to help his friend (who's experiencing a serious breakdown and keeps hurting himself), the other party considers this an enormous breach of boundaries and trust. After this, the latter certainly believes the former is irredeemable. Is he? I dunno. From his perspective, it was his only option to keep his friend safe.
     
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  16. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    I got the sense that was just a front and that he was protecting Harry. I thought he was actually so in love with his mother that he honored her by making sure V man didn't kill Harry. After all, he was a double agent in the story.
     
  17. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    I'm a Christian, and I believe that if a person truly repents whatever horrific thing they've done, then legally you still hold them accountable for the person they used to be, but morally you don't. For that matter, even if somebody hasn't repented yet, you should still focus on the possibility that they could repent at some indeterminate point in the future.

    Some days I'm able to do so better than other days.

    Always nice to have a reputation :twisted:
     
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  18. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    A character doesn't necessarily have to be redeemed, or even redeemable. In the movie Lord of War (spoiler alert), the main character isn't redeemed. Is it a good story? It's okay, in my opinion. If we understand the character, we don't necessarily have to like them. Someone mentioned Snape; he's a good example. I like Rickman's portrayal, but Snape dies "unredeemed" in my mind. To Harry, he's obviously a great man. That's one reason I don't love Harry Potter, but I don't hate the series, either.

    Most characters I'm aware of can be redeemed if they show some regret or remorse for the evil they've done, so long as that remorse doesn't come two seconds before they stop breathing. I've read some stories where characters commit acts of evil and don't show any change or remorse, in which case they fall into a category where I care less about their wants, desires, struggles, etc.
     
  19. surrealscenes

    surrealscenes Senior Member

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    I am not arguing with you. I would like to point out something that may help down the road.
    Nobody, and I mean nobody, has the same moral code as someone else.
    For contract killers there is a large range of moral codes- won't kill kids, won't kill women, won't kill police, won't kill politicians, won't kill pets, won't use a gun, won't strangle, won't stab. I can go on forever.
    To make it simple, in another industry. 2 people work in a slaughterhouse killing cows. One thinks it is fine to hit a cow with a sledge 3 times before it dies, another goes to confession if it takes more than 1 hit. 2 people killing cows with very different moral codes.

    My ex has near zero friends because when she finds one has a differnt moral code she cuts them out. She believes if she gets along well with someone they must be exactly the same. She can be nutty like that.
     
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  20. lilytsuru

    lilytsuru New Member

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    1. Rape. You're just gonna have a really hard time convincing a reader to forgive a rapist.
    2. Selfishness. It's not really about how bad something a character did was, it's about how selfish the action is. Hell, even in Rom com's I find myself unwilling to forgive some of the petty actions a protag or love interest does because I feel they were being selfish. Someone who kills because they think it will protect somebody else is more forgivable than someone who cheats on their partner because they like the thrill. Obviously murder is a way worse crime than cheating but it's the selfishness of the crime that makes the reader really dislike the character.

    It's the motivation more than the crime that sticks with the reader. The worst character is someone who takes pleasure at the expense of others.
     
  21. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    Let's go with a hypothetical here. First off rape is highly inaccurately portrayed in fiction. Often they portray rapist as psychopathic murders with no redeemable valuable. About 90% of rape cases according to studies, statistics based on reports are often done by someone you know. With that said, men can be raped by woman.

    So unto the hypothetical;

    -Say a friend hurt another friend
    -She wanted to get back at him
    -At first she simply wants to tease him, but it starts to take for the turn of the worse
    -She knows what she is doing terrible begging herself to stop doing this, trying to tell herself not to do it, but sort of ends up doing it anyway
    -She regrets her actions immediately, regrets it, and its the turning point in her story that she has known she has gone too far
    -She also stops, after he practically cries to her, because they had a rather developed friendship before all of this
    -She never wanted to go that far
    -Didn't even consider doing it in the first place
    -And it ends up happening the way it does, and haunts her character as much as the character she harms
     
  22. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    I've read some pretty morally horrible characters, and a few of their authors have attempted to redeem them. As others have said, it's all about the details for a lot of people. What you don't want for something so severe is an easy road to redemption. The more difficult that road is, the more people are willing to say, "Okay, okay, I can forgive them after they've gone through that!" Other people just won't, no matter what, but people like that probably aren't going to pick up your book if they know it's about a woman trying to redeem herself for that kind of thing.

    In fiction, we like to see people get their cumuppence, even if only a bit. They need to suffer for us to even think of forgiving them. You throw in one of the "hardly forgivable sins" (from society's view; things like rape or child abuse), and there's got to be a very long road ahead of that character.
     
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  23. JPClyde

    JPClyde Senior Member

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    I sort of wrote the scenario above your post. As people were asking for more context.
     
  24. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    I think this maybe too subjective of a question/topic. Everyone's views are based on their own morals and ethics and they differ on what is unforgivable. My husband looks at murder as forgivable where as I don't. I look at cheating as semi forgivable if its repented of and the person seeks restitution then never does it again. Semi-forgivable meaning- fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. You get one chance in my book and if you screw it up I'll forgive you once but only once, and you're going to have to work at it because you broke my trust. If it's done again not only will I never trust that person again but I cut them from my life.
     
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  25. Sclavus

    Sclavus Active Member

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    That's what I responded to. In your scenario, it would depend upon the details of her repentance. Does she get arrested? Diagnosed with some kind of mental problem? Depending on what happens to her, some people would think of her as redeemed.

    My suggestion to you would be to write the story, then submit it for critique and see what people say. There's no real way to nail down the "redeeming factors" without seeing the story in its entirety.
     
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