Are plot holes the end of the world?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by OnesieWrites, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @OnesieWrites

    If millions of people can put up with Tolkien's eagles, I think we can give your little plot-hole a pass.
     
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  2. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Tolkien's Eagles have a fairly clear explanation, at least in the books.

    There are some other pretty big plot holes in major media successes that generally got overlooked. Like how in the beginning of the original Star Wars, Imperial gunners are ordered not to destroy the escape pod C-3PO and R2-D2 are in, because "there are no life forms aboard". This in a world where droids are commonplace. I guess you could put that down to incompetence, but idiot plots aren't much better than plot holes.
     
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  3. isaac223

    isaac223 Senior Member

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    A fictional reality demands internal consistency all the same. And when there's silliness that stems from a lack of forethought or planning, it compromises that consistency. A fictional story should maintain some semblance of reality or reason because not being real isn't an excuse to not think everything through.
     
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  4. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    I'd say that plot holes are a simply an eventuality, and I doubt there's someone out there who can predict every plot hole in their story unless they read through it a thousand times over. Those plot holes are usually minor and excusable to some degree. If you are aware of a plot hole, however, it needs to be fixed, not left alone because you can't be bothered with it. They do nothing but confuse readers and can never have a positive impact because they are inconsistent within the framework of a plot. A story-writer has a responsibility to their readers, and the story itself, to provide a coherent reading experience with as few glitches as possible. Leaving a plot hole in the mix, if you know it's there, is unnecessary, and ultimately lazy.

    Just be prepared that, the more complex you make your plot, the more characters and organizations you have involved, and the more story mechanics you throw in to make it interesting, means that it's more likely you're going to have plot holes. An important part of good writing is to not needlessly bog down the story with any of these elements. Too much detail can hurt as much as not enough detail. I like to compare this situation to artwork: When you put in a great deal of details into a picture, you think it looks great up close, but the further you pull away from the picture and see it as a whole, rather than focusing on the beauty of that entire piece, your eyes are drawn to the minor unnecessary details. It's the same when you don't add enough detail, your mind will latch on to that error, and suddenly the picture is not as pleasing to look at, since you end up focusing on one area. I've done this reviewing my own artwork and writing, and it's annoying, but necessary to becoming a better creator.
     
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  5. OnesieWrites

    OnesieWrites Member

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    Wow thanks! After reading through these, it seems that plot-holes are to be avoided as much as possible, but might be unavoidable in some cases in a complex story! I guess ill just need to revise my story multiple times to check it thoroughly and iron it out as best as i can. :D And yes, some of my favourite stories have plot holes in them (most notably Gantz), but i can see how they can be an issue.
     
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  6. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not sure why Tolkien's eagles are an issue. Do people think they could have been the ring-bearers?
     
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  7. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    The best way to help yourself avoid plot holes is to read your own writing a few times over. If you write by the chapter, then consider reading the book from chapter to chapter as you progress. No writer is perfect, so don't stress it too much, but keeping tabs on yourself as you move along will make the result much more rewarding.

    *Imagines two eagles, one with black and the other with red curly hair flapping in the wind as they glide majestically upon the top of mount doom. The black haired eagle struggles to cast the One Ring into the blazing pit, while the other squawks to him, "I'm your Sam! Don't you know your Sam!?" Meanwhile, a vulture by the name of Gollum descends onto the pair in a desparate hunt to reclaim his stolen treasure.*
    Sounds pretty epic to me....
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Of course there's those pesky Nazgul....who, of course, would never notice a couple of eagles flying into Mordor....
     
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  9. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    Sounds like we have a genuine parody in the making. =)
     
  10. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    That's not really a plot hole. The eagles are big and awesome, but like anything big and awesome and flying, it's bound to draw a lot of attention to itself, so having the eagles fly Frodo and Sam up to the slopes of Mt. Doom would probably result in some arrowed eagles, some skewered hobbits and the premature rise of Sauron. Remember, when Sam and Frodo were actually in Mordor, Aragorn had to distract Sauron and get him to move his troops to the main gates so that the pair of them could get through to the cave they needed to drop it in to destroy it. There's also the argument that using the eagles was exactly what Gandalf was trying to do when he was interrupted by the Balrog and even told the rest of them to do this, but they didn't figure it out.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    That was such an awesome scene. Awesome film. I still can't believe my Japanese kids have never heard of it...
     
  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Yet the Eagles were magically there to save Frodo, seconds after he drops the ring? And he wasn't even expecting them?

    That's hard to buy.
     
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  13. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    I want to write a story where plotholes are integral to the plot, but I can't because if they were they wouldn't be plotholes.
     
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  14. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Dang it, I just ran into another plothole! When is the government going to fill them? What are my tax dollars for?
     
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  15. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Impeccable timing usually gets a pass. Especially a rescue scene. Damn near every book or movie has one of those, though now that I think about it, the eagles did seem to come out of nowhere. At least Han Solo was already in the general area when Vader had Luke's X-wing in his sights. Ditto for Bishop when Ripley and Newt were about to be savaged by the alien queen.
     
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  16. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Except in the book the Eagles had come to fight in the battle against Saurons army, trying to distract Sauron from Mt. Doom. They were out there doing their thing, being all gloriously majestic and attention grabbing, so it's not like they were hundreds of leagues away. Not to mention that the King of the Nazgul had been defeated already along with his flying Hell beast, something that was definitely different than it was at the beginning of the journey. This is something that seems more of a plot hole in the movie because, you know, things did have to be cut, but if it was a plot hole in the book, Tolkien addressed and explained it well enough.
     
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  17. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    A good article on the Eagles subject:

    https://www.tor.com/2016/12/21/tolkien-eagles-manwes-special-ops/

    One must remember that the Eagles serve Manwë. Some of their actions can be put down to divine intervention.
     
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  18. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    It could be argued that impeccable timing, or even the Deus Ex Machina is possibly one of the most common literary devices, since a story quite literally follows the memorable moments in a characters life and focuses on specific events where they happen to be in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time. Other characters that the MC(s) meet(s) are often by coincidence, and events that occur around them can usually be very spur-of-the-moment.

    Bilbo's journey in The Hobbit just so happened to lead him to the cave where Gollum lived, who just so happened to have lost a precious trinket, that just so happened to be the One Ring, which Bilbo just so happened to find.

    This is one, more notable, example out of many in Tolkien's works. It could be argued that the One Ring has a will of its own, and desired to find a new owner, or that it was Bilbo's "destiny" to find the Ring and bring it back to the Shire to where it ultimately fell to Frodo to care for it. Even then it's still a matter of timing.

    Without the idea of "impeccable timing" stories would be a lot slower, and drag along, because they wouldn't have as much focus as a story built on such happy or unhappy coincidences.
    This being said, the coincidences should be, to some degree at least, justifiable within the continuity of the story, or else, what do you know, you get plot holes. =)
     
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  19. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

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    I have been thinking on this question. Many of the post appear to be looking at the notion of an author putting a work out there with recognized plot holes, and the difficulties in addressing them as a writer, and possibly seeking other examples to 'justify' doing so.

    Consider the the perspective of the readers. Will they be miffed that the author produced an ill-conceived story? Shouldn't the readers be miffed? It's not really the readers' concern with how difficult it is to fix those plot holes, or that it might require going back to the beginning and doing major revisions to address them. Or that the multiple plot lines are complicated and don't actually match up, leaving holes (which the author knows are there). And if the plot holes cannot be addressed, then maybe the storyline as currently envisioned isn't viable.

    An analogy, that while isn't a perfect fit, might apply well enough.

    I've designed and built a new type of car, and put it up for sale. I know that if the drivers attempt to shift from 4th to 5th gear when traveling between 38 and 41 mph, the gears will grind--some sort of linkage problem that I've not been able to work out. And the internal dashboard lights for the speedometer will fail if the headlights have been on for more than four hours straight. Something with the wiring and fuse system. Maybe it could've been figured out, but to fix those concerns would require me to go back to the drawing board, and maybe rework the entire electrical system, or install a different brand of fuses, and that will take time to test to see if it solves the problem. Is it the end of the world? Maybe the drivers I sell the vehicles to won't be nighttime drivers, or at least not for great distances and never notice. Or might just shrug and learn not to shift gears from 4th to 5th when travelling between 38 and 41 mph, or just ignore the noise and potential damage happening to the transmission, because, otherwise, the car is a really unique and cool vehicle to drive.

    I realize no story is perfect but, as authors, shouldn't we strive to provide the reader with the best experience we're able to, and if we know there are holes in the plot, that they should be addressed?
     
  20. Stormburn

    Stormburn Contributor Contributor

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    Impeccable timing and Deus Ex Machina are staples of military history. The friction between two events creates an unexpected third event. During the Battle of Midway, the dive bombing and torpedo elements of the American carrier strike group becoming separated en route to attack the Japanese carrier group. The torpedo bombers, against doctrine, attack by themselves and the Japanese fighters dive down to sea level to repel the attack. This creates the third event of the dive bombers arriving over the now unprotected enemy carriers. To make it even more Deus Ex Machina, the carriers are vulnerable because their decks are crowded with planes, fuel and muntions because the commander has been switching back and forth between ammo types.
    History is seldom logical and I think Tolkien's story reflects this.
     
  21. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Oh it gets even crazier than that:

    "Arashi is most famous for its involvement in the Battle of Midway. Providing escort to the carrier group, the destroyer was alerted to the presence of an approaching U.S. submarine, USS Nautilus, when a Japanese Zero fighter aircraft dived and fired machine guns at Nautilus as it came to periscope depth. Arashi spotted the encounter and began to drop depth charges. The Japanese Task force changed course while Arashi continued its attack on Nautilus. Having kept Nautilus down long enough that she no longer was a threat, the captain of Arashi finally broke off the attack and steamed north to rejoin the carrier group. As two squadrons of dive bombers from Enterprise searched above for the Japanese Task Force, Arashi was spotted making great speed to the north. The ship's speed created a long wake, which acted as a direction arrow to the American aviators, guiding them to the Japanese carriers. Meanwhile, Japanese fighter aircraft protecting the carriers had been pulled away as they all attempted to engage an incoming torpedo attack from Hornet's VT-8 torpedo squad. At the moment of decision, the Japanese carriers were essentially without high air cover. This made for an uncontested approach for the American dive bombers. The Enterprise dive bombers happened to arrive over the Japanese carriers Kaga and Akagiunimpeded, scoring multiple hits on Kaga and a single hit on Akagi that doomed both ships.[4]"

    Without the dive bombers stumbling on Arashi and it accidentally pointing the way, Enterprise's dive bombers may never have found the carrier group, and the US might even have lost the battle.
     
  22. MythMachine

    MythMachine Active Member

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    Agreed. By creating a story, not only do we have the responsibility to the story to tell it properly as it should be, but an obligation to readers to provide them with as good a reading experience as we can give. In addition to this, writers should strive to push their capabilities, like with any other skill. Letting a plot hole fester in your pages is sheer complacency, and can hamper your progression as a storyteller.
     
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  23. Damien Loveshaft

    Damien Loveshaft Active Member

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    I agree with is depending vastly on the nature of the plot hole and the nature of your story. You don't want to leave in anything too distracting or obvious that could take away from the experience. I usually try to weed mine out with a plausible explanation if I catch one., if not I might try to change the scene.
     
  24. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Is that Deus Ex Machina? Feint low and hit high is a bread and butter military strategy. Maybe the Japanese didn't think they had enough planes to repel the tordpedo attack and were forced to use them all. Maybe they knew it left them vulnerable and hoped they could redeploy after repelling the torpedos.
     
  25. GrahamLewis

    GrahamLewis Seeking the bigger self Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    I think major plot holes should be avoided if at all possible. The story depends on a suspension of disbelief, and that's hard to do if the story doesn't hang together. That said, it also depends on context, sometimes the story is in a wholly fantastic universe. I'm thinking of Gary Larsen's comic strip, which often had polar bears and penguins co-existing. He got letters from people pointing out that it was wrong (opposite poles) and his response was something like, "But talking animals make sense?"
     

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