1. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Evolution in a fantasy setting

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Link the Writer, Sep 22, 2017.

    OK, I know I'm writing a fantasy involving magic, but hear me out: evolution. How does that resolve with the magic elements? I need some science opinions...

    To wit, Devonians (my cat-folk race) are basically humanoid feline-people with long horns coming out above their ears and curving to a point. Now correct me if I'm wrong -- evolution is less "I need this, so I'll evolve that" and more "This weird quirk isn't hindering me from producing offsprings, so it'll stay" true? I'm just thinking of what's the point of the horns.

    • Battle. This was obvious at first, but they stand upright, and the way the horns are grown, it would suggest they need to bend low at 90-degrees to the point where they're running on all four to use the horns. Nevermind the two facts that (1) they have claws and (2) the horns are basically big "please grab here" signs. It's why it's chiefly advised not to wear a tie/ponytail in a fistfight because you're basically giving your opponent something to grab onto.

    Now, the Devonians do pride themselves in battle and if they're able to get their horns locked in with the horns of another Devonian, that's a viable strategy. Still, it seems like a major liability to use in battle...
    • Romance. I'm...not about to go down that path, so let me just say it up front: "They craft tattoos using herbal ink on the horns to make themselves stand out."

    I think my question is, in terms of evolution, does it even make sense that they'd keep the horns? Wouldn't they try to weed out the horns?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly.

    Maybe the horns are leftover from when their ancestors were quadrupedal?

    That said, the entire point of horns is to use them in a fight, so they would have to be strong enough that you couldn't just grab them and yank them off. But if the Devonians use weapons that are strong enough, then I'd imagine warriors have their horns cut off ahead of time so as not to provide an incapacitatingly-painful target.

    If a culture of Devonians decided "large horns are bad, so we have to control our peoples' breeding until the horns start to go away," then that would be less "natural selection" and more "eugenics," and that sounds like less of a background detail and more the basis of an entire story.
     
  3. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    Mating displays seem like a reasonable thing.
     
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  4. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    That's not exactly how Evolution works.
    Take us humans, genus-homo. We had at one time a number of competitors, all of which on paper seemed better candidates for survival. But here we are, smart phones and Cheetos; Livin' La Vida Loca. We had the one thing they didn't, a penchant for irrational (imaginative) thought. It's sometimes the subtle, invisible things that make the beast. There's no brains behind Evolution, nor any grand purpose. Almost every creature there ever was, is now extinct. Evolution, in every sense of the process, is a dead end road. So horns on a humanoid species is possible, though they may serve no useful purpose, they've become vestigial and ornamental. Like plumage on a peacock.
     
  5. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Depending on how the horns are shaped, they'd make a good natural helmet and if headbutting and such were a part of their history, then chances are they'd also have special adaptations to allow them to survive head trauma much better than normal humans. Also, grabbing things like neck ties and ponytails are not a great thing to do in a fight. Your opponent may not be able to get too far away from you, but it also leaves you unable to defend with whatever hands you're grabbing with. If someone grabbed their horns when they were charging, they could easily counter with a solid and practically undefendable shot to the solar plexus. A bigger problem with charging is that it's pretty much an all or nothing move that's very obvious, is easy to counter, and would be hard to recover from, especially if they had to duck their head to charge and lose sight of the target.
     
  6. Stormburn

    Stormburn Contributor Contributor

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    It will pay off dividends to establish what kind of force magic is and it's influence on your world. Once you have an idea of how your world works the elements in it take on a life of their own.
     
  7. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    That'd make a lot of sense actually. Maybe thousands, if not millions of years prior, the Devonians were four-legged beasts before they evolved to where they are today. As for the science of how they got from feral beasts to bi pedaled sentient beings capable of logic... I've no idea. :/

    And good point. If a sect of Devonians were all, "Let's breed out a vast swath of our own kin to be rid of the horned/not-horned Devonians!" then that would warrant a story all on its own. Them committing what's basically genetic-genocide isn't exactly something Kenthew (a Devonian) could just brush off as some background info. I would imagine his human companions might have strong, negative opinions about that.

    Good idea about the warriors cutting their horns off.

    I'm thinking that maybe the bigger the horns, the stronger/healthier a Devonian is.

    Maybe back when they were feral beasts, it was used like our deer use their antlers and while they don't do it that way anymore, they use their horns as a way to show off how "many"/"fertile" they are?

    Ah, thank you. I don't know much about Evolution (as much as I should), so this is helpful. Maybe at one point the horns did serve some purpose but now outside of mating and the occasional chance of goring your opponent, they're really not of much use and that's OK. We have a bunch of body parts left over from earlier stages of our evolution that doesn't harm us (ie, our tail bone) but are functionally useless.

    I always imagine that the Devonians have quick reflexes, so even if someone managed to jump out of the way, the charging Devonian could quickly twist his/her body around and continue. As for sight, well, Devonians do have enhanced hearing and smell so even if they can't see exactly where they're charging, they can use the other senses to help them.

    EDIT: I did have Kenthew (a Devonian) explain the horns to my MC. Paraphrased:

    "Our horns are mostly for mating -- Hey, don't give me that look, Mishu, I think human dating is gross. Lots of...lip smacking... Anyway, most of us keep our horns. Longer horns make for a healthier, stronger Devonian. We don't shave our horns off unless we are going into battle -- I mean, I'm basically wearing a pair of 'please grab me!' signs here. Don't worry, they grow back."
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  8. Bolu Kai

    Bolu Kai Member

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    I bought the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin to learn more about natural selection. I recommend it. It's an interesting read.\

    Another thing to look at might be crossbreeding/hybrids. I forget the science behind it, but I know certain animals can be bred and their offspring can be sterile or fertile.

    I hate using Wikipedia but here is quick reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterility_(physiology)
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  9. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    That's not quite right. If the quirk helps the creature produce more or healthier offspring, then the odds are that it will be more common in in future generations. If it's neutral then it's subject to genetic drift - it might become more common or die out.

    As for the horns, evolution will let them stay if they are at least neutral in terms of having healthy offspring. So if they make survival more difficult day-to-day, then they need to have a big pay-off in some way. A relevant real-life example would be bucks, which have horns that take a lot of effort to carry around and get caught in trees/undergrowth. So why don't bucks with small horns replace their large-horned brethren? Because the females find large horns attractive. Genetically, it's not an advantage to be able to survive better day to day if it vastly reduces your odds of having offspring.

    Tl;dr: evolution is about what helps us pass on our genes, not survive day on day.
     
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  10. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Devonian is a bit similar to Devaronian, a horned species in Star Wars. May want to change the name if you wanna keep the horns.
     
  11. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Only male Devaronians have horns, though, and they live in a matriarchal society and don't look anything like cats. I may not be an expert, but I'm pretty sure there are enough differences already for them to be legally distinct species.
     
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  12. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    To be fair, I've had people protest it in other forums because it was similar to a county in the UK (County Devon, I believe) -- and understandably those people probably don't want to be compared to smelly horned cat-people. :p It's all first draft, though so no worries. Once I get it to the editing phase, I'll worry about whether that name might piss off the Star Wars community or UKers. :D
     
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  13. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

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    haha this is fun and with many odd answers.

    Evolution is quite simple. Those most suited to their environment tend to survive and produce offspring, and the offspring tend to inherent the same traits.

    For example, if you are an early human and you hear the grass rustle, you may have two reactions: -

    1) You may run, assuming it is a tiger.
    2) You may stand still assuming it is the wind.

    Well, 2) will obviously eventually get eaten, meaning the genes of 1) will become predominant.

    And this is essentially why modern people are religious, because they are predisposed to believe things exist without evidence, or to see patterns in the random.

    The reason we do not have horns is because they are of no use to us. As it is we have evolved large brains, which means we give birth to offspring earlier (because they have larger heads beyond the female's capacity to give birth later). This already places a huge burden upon early humans to protect their offspring. Horns would die out instantly, because they would kill mothers in child birth (even in a nub state) over and over until those genes died.

    I can explain in specific detail in accordance with your proposed world if you want.
     
  14. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Well, to start, freezing is actually a defense tactic used by small animals, so 2 is not obviously going to get eaten. Also, the human body is just littered with things it doesn't actually need and could even be detrimental to survival, like body hair, foreskins, wisdom teeth, and appendixes. And, horns on any animal don't start developing until it reaches the animal equivalent of puberty. Before then there's just a nub where the horn will be, that's why sheep, deer and rhinoceroses still exist instead of tearing their mothers six ways till Tuesday. So it is entirely possible that humans could have the brains and skulls we have and still have horns because the only thing that would be different at birth would be a small spot of slightly different tissue in the skull indicating where horns would grow in the future.
     
  15. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

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    I clearly was not referring to flight, play dead or fight. Do not misrepresent me.

    Horns clearly have a vastly larger effect on a woman giving birth than wisdom teeth that will not appear for another eighteen years, and a Rhino is not synonymous with a human. Do not misrepresent me.

    I am happy to enter into discussion, but do not treat me like a moron.
     
  16. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    They would actually have the exact same effect because neither one actually would be present at birth.
     
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  17. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    The 'small nubs' actually do get mentioned within the story. Baby Devonians look almost exactly identical to normal kittens and it's not until the human characters feel the small pair of bumps that they deduce that this is actually a Devonian baby.
     
  18. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

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    Actually, on that point I retract my earlier diatribe. In a fantasy world, they might just grow horns at puberty.
     
  19. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    This sounds adorable. I'm curious if they're born with their eyes closed, too.
     
  20. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    That's correct. The human characters fawn over the 'kitten' and actually panic a few months down the road when they discover the stubs. Kenthew has to explain to them what's what before they go into 'OMFG POOR KITTY HAS CANCER!!' mode

    EDIT: Just so no one think my human characters are completely dense morons, most of them know what baby Devonians look like. This happens between Mishu and another character who has never met baby Devonians and refuses to believe her -- even outright accusing Mishu of not giving a fuck if this kitten actually has tumors. Hence Kenthew having to be summoned and correcting the misconception.
     
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  21. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

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    I would like to apologise to @The Dapper Hooligan; I am so used to having to defend evolution against morons, that I got into defence mode, forgetting this was all hypotheticals.
     
  22. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Thank you.
     
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  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think you'll need to consider whether the horns would get in the way of the other evolutionary advantages of your critters.

    Looking at housecats, at least... they've evolved to be stalkers, pouncers, creeper-uppers... all of which would likely be less effective if they have a big set of horns sticking out in front of them. They've evolved with wickedly sharp claws so that one of their prime fighting techniques involves lying on their backs to allow all pointy bits to be exposed. Again, that seems like an action for which horns would at the very least be useless, and quite possibly get in the way. Their musculature would probably have to change as well in order to compensate for the weight issues.

    TL;DR: I'm trying to imagine how my cats would function with pronghorn-style horns, and it's not going too smoothly. Consider the entire animal, not just the horns.
     
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  24. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

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    Sabre-tooth? But they were used to suffocate. The only a way acat would have horns is for fighting over a mate, but why? No reason.
     
  25. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Good point. Even the most bulky of felines like jaguars are known for their quick, amble moves -- something which would be greatly hampered by a set of huge horns sticking out of their heads. Not only would they present an easy grab for opponents, but imagine trying to get through a door with pronghorn-styled horns?

    For clarity's sake, here's what Kenthew looks like. Please disregard the whole "him cuddling up to Mishu" thing (Mishu doesn't even look like that anymore.) Just focus on him.

    Kenthew and Mishu Romance.png

    That's what a Devonian looks like. To be honest, I probably should've opened up with this picture first so you all had an idea of just what the hell I'm talking about. :p Anywhoo...

    Still, you've a good point.
     

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