Sooooo, I have attached this reputation to myself of someone who eternally goes on to rewrite the same scene over and over. The reason being, people tend to say my writing is not clear enough, or that this word or that is not good, or that the overall feeling is confusing, or etc... etc... etc... I rewrite the scene, feedback in mind, and wait for the comments. Well, apparently it is better now! But you see, they say, now you got this thing wrong or that thing wrong. Aha! I think. Then I'll patch it up and call it a day. What? Still not good enough? Okay then, let's see... given that I did something wrong in my last revision that in the first one was better and that the things that were wrong in the first one I managed to patch up in the last revision - I know, I shall combine the positives of each! Now it's all jumbled up. Some people prefer this, others that. This guy or gal who is a professional critic says X is better than Y, but random reader fellow #35 says otherwise. Who should I listen to...? How the hell am I supposed to write an entire story, let alone a novel, if I cannot manage to finish a single fucking satisfactory scene!? P.S: S.O.S Edit: I had a thought. Of course, critique is essential for improving your piece. However, do you think it is possible to post a piece or present it in a way that somebody would say, "That's perfect. I see no problems at all." It's kinda like a catch, there's no escape.
If I post something from a novel length book I'm more about getting feedback on general ideas -- I.e. are people understanding the dynamics of the character, is what I'm hinting at being grasped. The scene is always rough and I have no plans to clear it up after I post it. I have no plans on tackling anything till my first draft is done. The comments are to let me know whether I'm on the right track or if I'm being too subtle for UPCOMING scenes. And that way I can make adjustments for the following scenes. I wouldn't post or ask someone how to make a scene the best it can be before the first draft if finished. You want to finish the draft and then see what to do because the scene you could spend weeks polishing might not even have a place in the second draft. I've got plenty of scenes in my first draft that I know will be axed or condensed into a few lines of prose. Polishing is for the second and third drafts. All you want feedback on in the first draft is whether ideas are being conveyed and whether characters are interesting. If you're too far away from your original idea go back to your first draft and just keep writing regardless of the advice you got. Too much polishing to suit a dozen different opinions isn't going to help your story, it's just going to cause delays and confusion.
Of course you need people give you critique on what you write. But in the end it's your story, your tone, your voice, your reponsibility. It's hard, it's difficult, it sucks. But it gets better. You get better. Keep writing! Maybe you should do some short stories, things you can finish and leave behind.
Thanks for the encouragement I thought about short stories, too. It's a whole different art I hear, but I feel eager to commit some ideas to paper. I actually have more short stories in mind than novels. It could also be an obsession with this single story I am trying to write. Not that it's a bad one, rather tricky to execute. Experimenting with other things might do me good. Much obliged! Hm... that makes for comfort... and a lot of sense. I did approach posting excerpts like this at first, meaning for them to prove to me that I am on the right track. Things got confusing when people commented not so much on the story and or characters as they did on the clarity of my words or the piece as a whole. "Choosing this word sounds pretentious." "This description takes me out of the scene." "What did you mean by this word?" etc... All of this makes it really hard to push on because I feel as if something is fundamentally flawed, at least to others, in my most basic of descriptions. What would you say to that? Thanks THIIIIIIISSSSS much for your words
I agree with @peachalulu - snippets from your story can definitely show if you need help with spelling/grammar, overall writing style, phrase/word choice, etc., but as far as determining if you're on the right track? That's almost impossible to determine in a vacuum, because no one's going to get from an excerpt what track you want to be on. Think of it this way - if you were planning a trip from New York to California, you wouldn't post the part of your route that goes from Nebraska to Colorado and ask people if it's a good way to get from the East cost to the West coast, right? It's too small and specific of a sample to gauge the overall success of your plan.
I find if I put it away, and go back months later...I can make it better, rather than agonizing over and over again. Sometimes you're just to close.
Again just push forward. In my first draft I have a lot of 'hangnails' in my prose. Also a lot of these things are fixable -- description taking someone out of a scene usually means the description wasn't necessarily needed where you put it and it can either be eliminated or moved (in a second draft), clarity of word choices can also be changed -- so long as you know what you're talking about it can be cleared up in another draft. The fact that someone is struggling with your word choices means that either he's missing something or you're missing something and it's definitely something to keep in mind while writing (are you picking clear cut nouns and verbs? are you using hyperbole or a big word when a small one would do, are you using the thesaurus properly -- I've watched writers use strut instead of walk just to jazz up their writing not realizing they can change the whole attitude of the scene and character with one little word. And then suddenly readers are confused -- why is this character strutting?)
I miss out on the finer details being that I live in Israel (unfortunately [it sucks]) but yeah, I get you. That's a good analogy. That's a good point and a good advice I already exercise My problem is rather that even when I go back after a hiatus things just loop and instead of everything becoming better, it just becomes a different kind of not good. I have gotten a similar feedback for using "observe" instead of "notice". I did change it after being told it comes out as like I'm using big words to sound smart. It might be my standards. I read the word 'observe' far more than I do 'notice', and that's because I read much older stuff than I do modern. Though I would never use a word just for the sake of it. I nitpick everything I write to the point where I can sit an entire night editing a small paragraph (no kidding). But in my defense, I cannot possibly say that the quality of my writing has remained static from when I posted my first excerpt to this day. I will definitely remember this advice. Whether it's good or not (which I think it is), implementing it will completely change my writing habits from obsessing over a small part of a big story to pressing on with new pieces. Whatever it is I'm doing now has proven not to work, so this couldn't hurt. Thanks again
My advice would be, don't get 35 readers for an unfinished first draft. I didn't show my novel until draft 4, when I was ready to hear how almost perfect it was (it was far from it), to one reader whose opinion I trust. I would be embarrassed to submit an early draft of mine for critique, but that's just me. What I'm looking for in a critique is, how perfect good enough is it? I won't be looking for too many beta-readers either or I'll be editing this novel for the rest of my life.
I mean, it makes sense to submit a draft for validation at a later stage but wouldn't you need to make an early check just to see whether the way you go about writing an entire story is sufficiently coherent? If you go for style X, you want to get first impressions on whether people find it comprehensible because in case they don't it'll be like writing a theory based on a false premise, wouldn't it? That may be my issue. People find my story interesting in theory, but when I display my writing skills is where it gets bad. So I think, how can I possibly write the whole thing if my premise of writing is not good enough to others? It is important to note that I have sent the same excerpts I had posted here to some friends and their friends and got a good reception (and a genuine laugh on a comedic moment), which, though I am grateful for, only serves to confuse me further - on the one hand, critics disapprove of the many quirks of my writing. On the other hand, the average reader, by whom I am hopeful what I write will be read, enjoys it genuinely. So... the fuck? I am not quick to dismiss critics in favor of crowd approval for fear of becoming this author who writes shit stories devoid of literary merit but which the every man enjoys. It is not less about me proving my skills to myself as it is me proving them to others.
I read somewhere that good story telling trumps good writing every time. I think it takes both, but both cannot be achieved at once. You can't put the siding on a house before the framing is done. I would expect an early critique to be about the quality of my story telling, and a later critique to be about my writing skills.
At the end of the day it's not what the critics think. People who write, edit, or critique on a daily basis aren't going to be the ones reading your book and the average reader who does isn't going to be interested in critiquing what you have. They're going to be interested in the story. You can be a fan-freaking-tastic writer and still have a story that catches absolutely no one's attention. Sure, it's good to get feedback and advice when you're still in the creating process but if critiques and edits are keeping you from pressing on with your story then accept you can't please everyone and move on. I might be alone in this opinion, but I think it matters more whether you like the story than anyone else.
Friends are not necessarily the best arbiters of average-reader-approval. They may be being kind; they may just be impressed that you have written a book/short story. On the other hand, critiques on this site tend to be to quite a high level. Certainly I've read successful books that I would have shredded on here! We're TRYING for perfection, and a 2k excerpt can be looked at in some detail where a 90k book can get away with some sloppiness in the middle. For me, at least, that isn't so. If the SPaG is dodgy, I can't get into the story telling because I'm so busy translating what's written into comprehensible English that I may as well write it myself! Nowadays, if the SPaG is that dodgy, I won't bother to critique it. ETA: At the end of the day, it's the author's responsibility. Read all the conflicting advice, pick what resonates most with you, and full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!
It's the meaning of the words you want to consider, not how big or small or "older" or modern they are. Per your example, observe and notice both have to do with seeing, but they mean two different things. To observe something is to look at it for a long time, usually for the purpose of finding out something about it. Whereas, when you notice something you're making a mental note that it exists, but that's all. You might go on to observe or examine or scrutinize it, but the noticing itself is the work of a moment. No need to nitpick your vocab. The point is to know what meaning you want to get across, and choose an appropriate word for the job. (Keep in mind that there may be two or three that will work equally well.) Completing your first draft before showing your story around is probably the best way for you to know what the right words should be. And as one who had a beta reader tell me some of my word choices were over people's heads, I took a good look at what I wanted to say. Some of them I changed out. But if I judged that the word got the idea across best, I left it in. Heck, Kindle has a dictionary built in, and even 6th graders (11-year-olds) are taught to work out unfamiliar vocabulary from context clues. Oh yeah: I really like trains.
There is no such thing as perfect. It is good to get feedback if you feel that something is just not quite sitting right for you at a given part in your story. The more you get back, the better typically, but sometimes it will be cleared up after 2-3 different perspectives and opinions. And in some cases you might only get one, or none (or a unanimous large amount all addressing a main point to focus on and see if you can fix it later on).
Been there, done that. My first experience with this was in the "share your first three sentences" thread. I shared mine, got critique, revised, shared again, got more critique, rinse and repeat maybe 10 times. It seemed like every critique was accurate and half the people liked the changes while the other half didn't. I couldn't please everyone or even 60%. I became extremely frustrated until NiallRoach said this: "Find some feedback that works with your vision of your novel and go with it. If you're aspiring to be Hemmingway, with minimalist writing, ignore those who ask for more adjectives. If you're a disciple of Joyce, bugger those who tell you you've got too many." Now when I find myself writing in circles or just not understanding why the readers feel a certain way, I ask why do they feel this way? What is it about this part of the scene that makes them dislike it? Get to the root of the problem and THEN you can fix it. Unless you can solve the problem at its root, the source of the problem will keep coming back in every rewrite (except the few times when you get lucky). Dig deep into the problem and into what your readers say and try to find what's causing the issue. Ask them direct questions: Why did this bore you? At what point did you lose interest, and can you explain why you're uninterested in that part? What is it about this scene that makes you dislike it so much? Why do you feel this word doesn't fit? Once you ask the right questions and get the answers you need, you can much more easily decide what needs to stay, change, be deleted, or be added in the story. This is your first draft; don't worry about it being perfect unless you're one of those perfectionists who can't move on until it is. Ask your alpha readers to specifically address what you're looking for and to ignore everything else. Explain that this is a first draft and for you to be able to continue to write, you need them to ignore critiquing your style and word choices for now. Friends and family will understand things other alphas don't. This can be caused by their familiarity with the way you talk, act, and think, or it can be caused by a similar culture and knowledge. Your friends and family might also be critiquing a different part of the scene, such as they might be critiquing "the big picture" whereas others critique anything that might stop your work from getting published (which would overwhelm anyone who put out the first draft for critique). Take a break to breathe and figure out what answers you need and what questions you need to ask to get those answers. And good luck!
Write true and honest. You are the author. You are the storyteller. Tell the story from the heart. Make your characters use the words they would use. If you put your soul (i.e. personality) into your characters, their scenes, the action - then no one is going to be able to tell you that you used the wrong damn word. I have been fortunate to have been critiqued by intelligent, observant individuals who understand critiquing is meant to be a blessing, not a curse. A story I am currently working on concerns the Chicago fire of 1871. My character is on a steam ship on Lake Michigan 90 miles out from Chicago and can see the flames that are engulfing the city. A very kind reviewer let me in on the fact that 90 miles away from Chicago would put the Windy City under the horizon - so I changed it to 30. Another simply told me that there was no way one of my characters would react like I had them do so. Those are the critiques you want - constructive and demanding. The only way you will get those type of critiques, in my opinion, is when you write in your own voice - honestly and confiidently.
First let me say if you honestly want someone one will say "That's perfect. I see no problems at all." Let me introduce you to my good friend/beta reader Michael. Love the kid like crazy. He is published author with a minor press, but he is crap at giving constructive feedback to improve my writing and no matter how wonderful it sounds to hear everything is perfect just the way you first wrote it, you really don't want that. What you may want to remember is the story is yours. You created the world and the characters. (Though sometimes the characters will make you doubt it through their actions.) The story and plot belong to you! If someone says, "Hey you misspelled this.", "That sentence/paragraph is confusing me can you clear up the confusion about so-and-so for me?", or even if they say, "This doesn't make any sense the way you put it. What the hell are you trying to say?" Remember, the person MAY have some valid points, if you get multiple people saying the same thing, review it in depth. If you have to make another post and say, "This is what I wrote, this is what was said and this is a fix that I think will work. Feedback?", or "I think this person may have simply missed a point somewhere… what do y'all think?" then do it. If you take the time to change every little thing someone does not like, you are going to frustrate yourself trying to be perfect for everyone and make no one, especially yourself happy. I do the same thing with my in-house edits. I use a program and it points out every little detail of what might be changed to improve the story from the basis of the software algorithms. What it cannot tell me is that if I am making all these changes for pacing, readability, diction and style, are my story and the unique voices of my characters going to survive? No software and no person can tell you exactly what you should put on the page, only you, your plot and the people inside your world can tell you those things. Another thing no software can do is pick out the human issues on a reliable basis. Beta readers are great at knowing when the single line in the first chapter, that sets up the entire scene is buried and not easily understood and as such the whole mess becomes confusing. I thank Sheridan, another beta for pointing that one out. When I went back and reviewed it I saw exactly what he was saying. I guess this is my long winded way of saying, find betas you can trust, but also trust your world, your character's voices, and the plot in your head. Just because some people do not like the story, does not mean you need to do anything to it. Trust yourself more!
One thing I will say is that sometimes I get the same comments from the software I use, it wants to "dumb down" the words in the story. However, as the story is related first person, and the MC is a snobby, over-cultured twit in the beginning, I have learned to take the criticism with a grain of salt. No she doesn't use contractions. Yes, she insists on behaving as if she were a 70-year-old high society snob, when she is actually a 35-year-old trapped in a world she was not raised (by positions or wealth) to understand. Yet, the position, wealth and attitude fell into her lap at in her late teens/early twenties so she over-compensated terribly. She has behaved this way for so long the people around her expect it of her. so it is her "normal" now Not until a new person enters her life does she start to realize she has been living like she is an old woman and missing out on her youth. Sometimes the character defines the verbiage from the place they are inside at the moment.
