Weren't you arguing for outlining, though? I've always seen the idea that one MUST outline (as opposed to "I outline; it works for me; why not give it a try?") as evidence of perfectionism.
I said it was reasonable. If I thought three was the only answer then I would have said "3 drafts is exactly the right number". So your question is kind of stupid. Yes, I am horrible because I said 3 drafts is a reasonable number. Spare me. Well, holy shit, then using proper exclamation is evidence of perfectionism as well. Man, this place is utterly depressing. I am simply stating that you do not need every word of your first draft to be perfect. And I really don't give a shit what you consider perfectionism. Every single writer outside stream of conciosusness writers use an outline...either internal one in their head or externally on paper or file. Hey, every book has to have sentences.....OMG I am such a perfectionist.
I strive for perfection with each draft I do. I can't stand filling pages with what I consider garbage. I edit as I go. Sure, as a discovery writer (pantser), when I finish I draft, I tend to have to remove large chunks of it where I made wrong turns; this happens as the story, and the themes, become clearer to me. I write new material to bridge gaps. Many successful writers work this way, including some of my personal heroes (James Joyce, Anthony Burgess, etc.). Maybe you'd get a more positive response if that's what you actually said, but it isn't. Where did you get this idea, and why is it so stuck in your head you feel the need to repeat it? It is untrue. I have read extensive interviews with literally hundreds of writers over the years - celebrated, prize-winning writers - and none have made this claim. Many use outlines, but a great many others find them highly restrictive. Isaac Asimov said he tried using an outline once and found it intolerable, "like trying to play the piano from inside a straitjacket." The truth I've gleaned from my own research is that lots of successful writers are discovery writers. They don't really know the story until they've written it. In many cases, this is because story isn't paramount in their view - character and theme are. That's their focus, and the details of plot will emerge as characters deal with their problems.
I said "3 drafts is a reasonable expectation with revisions after that." Are you disagreeing with this? If so, what is a reasonable number of drafts. I am just stating a tool (outline) that writers use and any book on writing or college level creative writing class will recommend. But yes, insult me in some way because I dared to say it. But since you bring it up, what would you know about publishing companies??? No, that is what I said. The TS went on about being a perfectionist and not being able to start. I said the first draft was going to be crap and every successful writer does more than one draft. Now, you want to bring up Isaac Asimov as an example to a bunch of people on a writing website trying to get better??? You don't go with the outliers. Also, an outline is a tricky thing. I said over and over some outlines are in your head and some are written down but you believe even Isaac had an outline. It could be the most general outline like a sentence on the opening, one on the ending, and some stuff in the middle. It does not have to be detailed. But to some point you have to have an idea of the overall part of your story. Now, the people who have written published novels have had an outline of some sort. To recommend not using one to newbie writers is reckless.
So, you pontificate that all successful writers use an outline. When people point out the ways that you're wrong, you redefine "outline", step by step. Soon, a writer getting up in the morning will be redefined as that writer having an outline. Unless you're just doing this for the pleasure of being rude, why not stop?
There isn't one reasonable number that's going to apply to all authors and all projects. It'll vary, and that's fine. I've got lots of published novels and I rarely outline. I do it if I have to write a proposal for the publishers, but then I tend to abandon the outline as soon as I see an opportunity to do something different. If I don't have to write a proposal, I don't have any form of outline. Which isn't to say that outlining is bad. I think it works really well for some writers. But it doesn't work for other writers. If we're going to worry about saying reckless things to new writers, I think I'd be much more concerned about pretending there's only one way to write. One number of drafts, one state for the first draft, one method of figuring out the story... it's just not reflective of reality. Different approaches work for different writers and different projects.
For some people, writing isn't just a daily task they sit down to do, or a hobby they enjoy, or a goal they have in sight, or an assignment (self-assigned or otherwise) that they must meet. For some people, writing requires inspiration, coupled with a certain kind of head-time that allows them to engage with what inspires them. If the inspiration isn't there, or the head-time is constantly interrupted—either physically, by other people or events, or by thoughts and worries about other matters that seem overwhelming—they struggle to write. This isn't laziness. This can produce genuine misery and /or a feeling of being thwarted. If you sit down at the computer and nothing comes, or you write all day and haven't really said anything worthwhile—and this happens day after day—you'll feel really stymied. Especially if you know you can write well, because you've done it before. If you feel the well has run dry, it's not a good feeling. Hopefully it's temporary, though. I write because I enjoy it, not because I'm driven to do it. I write because I love to read, basically. And I've always had stories in my head. But when I find the writing isn't going well, I just stop. Sitting and 'writing through' it doesn't work for me. It just produces more dreck that I need to get rid of later on. What I need to do is think my way through the issue that's holding me back and envision the result. As soon as I do that, I'm good to go again. I'm in a dry period just now, and it is my own fault, because I've allowed other things to eat up my thinking time. I'm not lazy, however. In fact, I work quite hard every day at other writing-related things like editing my own story and beta reading/line editing for others. But my brain isn't in 'write a new story' mode just yet. When I do write, I write non-stop. I wrote non-stop in my spare time for five years, while producing the first draft of my novel. I hated being interrupted, loved every minute of writing and couldn't wait to get to my desk every day, and I want to get back to that place again. My life has changed a lot since—including retirement and my husband's serious illness (which is better now, but has left us with an entirely new life routine) and there are new things to accomodate. I have faith I will manage to accomodate them, when I'm ready to. Everybody's writing method is different, as @BayView rightly points out at several points during this discussion. Nobody has all the answers. And NOBODY has the right to tell somebody else (whom they don't know) that they are 'lazy' or procrastinating. Instead, why not offer suggestions for how to break out of the mire that particular person has called their 'writer's block?' It's how THEY define it that's important. A person may have lost the will to write, and misses that enthusiasm and wants it back. They may be writing every day, but feel they can no longer string words together in a way that says what they want to say. They may want to write, but every idea hits a dead-end. Perhaps new or inescapable routines prevent them from getting the time they need to be creative, and they're looking for a way to get around that. @ChickenFreak mentioned burnout, and that's another factor that can certainly crop up, especially when you've been working too hard or trying too hard. In that case, continuing to plod on is probably the last thing you need to do to solve the problem. Just as there is no one 'writer's block' there is no one solution to reduce it or reverse it. That's why a community like this is so good for writers. If lots of fellow writers and wannabe writers contribute their suggestions, some of the suggestions might provide a spark a particular writer needs to get them going again. However, if we're judgmental and put our fellow forum members down with words like 'lazy,' I don't think that helps anybody who feels vulnerable or frustrated. And it saps the fun out of the forum as well, at least for me.
Yes, a good wedding photographer will demonstrate creativity. But, EOTD, he's being paid to document the great day. He's expected to produce all the standard Bride and Groom, Groom and Best Man, All the Bride's Side...photos. So, if he's feeling a little blocked, he's got some "copy-typing" that he can get on with. With luck, his creativity will start to flow once he's got past the worst of his hangover; if not, he'll crib that lovely original shot he did on Maisie McWhatshername's wedding, and just write this wedding off as one that won't go into the portfolio of how good he is. As I said in my original post, way back on page one, surgeons are almost invariably performing the same procedure over and over. Even the original ones are just pushing the edges of what's already been done. Face it, you'd be damned worried if you thought the surgeon was winging it without the safety net of knowing that the procedure - or something pretty similar - had already worked in better than 50% of the cases. My father was offered a procedure to solve a problem that had a 50% chance of killing him within a year but that had a 20% chance of him dying on the table; he opted to take his chances with nature. As I also said - and speaking as an accountant - surgeons (and accountants) get creative in the problem-solving area, where the clever part is formulating the question that must be answered. My daughter's book improved no end when, in a totally different context, we started chanting "Kill the dog! Kill the dog!". She killed the dog. Great plot point.
After reading @jannert's post I feel like I should apologize for using the word lazy. We don't know the whole picture of someone's situation. But I still stand by what I said earlier that writing is a choice and we can choose to do it or choose to do something else. Sure people get stuck and no one writes all the time, but saying you have no time to write... If you really think you have no time to write, I think it just shows how much of or lack of a priority writing is for you.
I posted a picture of my solution to writer's block just the other day. Hang on, and maybe I can find it... A little pep talk in the mirror works wonders. ... ...I had two people tell me over the weekend that my methods may be a little harsh, but I just don't know any other way to do it.
Great to see you back. I was just having an online discussion with another member recently, and we were wondering what happened to you, and if you were all right. It sounds as if you're still around, anyway. Take care, and good luck getting the writing back on track.
There is no such thing as writers block. It's just a reluctance to put in the work. If you do put in the work, sooner or later, creativity will invariably follow. Hope that settles the argument
Since this is a new thread I feel it would be remiss of me not to say that intoxication is a wonderful tonic to being creatively stunted. I have a reasonable solid theory on this too. There's two drives in creative people; there's our desire to create and our desire to create well (our self critical side). I think that writers block is what happens when that latter drive is stronger than the first, that's why you sit there not knowing what to write because it feels like anything you put down will be wrong. By taking/smoking/drinking/snorting/injecting (no judgement from me, I've done them all) something that lowers your inhibitions and gives you a stronger sense of confidence or inner happiness that barrier of self criticism drops down below your desire to create and you can just do. That doesn't mean that it'll always be good but it does help you to get going again, to find some thread you want to work on, something interesting that grips you and makes you feel positive about what you are doing. The 'block' is hurdled and you and carry on. I'm definitely of the school of thought that says what really matters is the finished product. The final book. It doesn't matter if it sucks right now, it doesn't matter if the dialogue makes you cringe, it doesn't matter if you can't for the life of you describe this thing right. You're writing a book, not a sentence. And it doesn't matter what intermediate steps of suck your book passes through as long as it's good at the end. And that means that you just need to put words on the damn page. Just write the damn thing. And whatever helps you to do that; do that. And while I am bit tongue in cheek; I write high and I have never once had writers block. To the contrary I have more ideas than I can write. I can't swear they are all good ideas and I definitely know that my first drafts are vastly too long to ever be a finished book but that doesn't matter in the slightest. You get it where you want it in the end. Just get the words on the page. And if you need a glass of wine, a spliff, an attractive pink and white disney mug full of opium tea or any other libation that helps the wheels turn; do it man. It's easier to make the block go away than figure out how to climb over it, you know?
There is such a thing as writer's block. You are wrong and I am right. There. Took you to school, didn't I? (I also woke up all ornery and everything this morning, so I had to post this.)
Last Night. On the late side side. No dinner has been made. The house is pretty dark. I'm curled up in an unmade bed reading O'Henry. My Significant Other: Did you write today? Me: Shhh... Let me just finish this page... Oh, the writing. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. And with a kiss and delivery pizza my SO supported the arts.
I'm a fan of the 'soft' outline. It happens every time I sit down to write from scratch these days, and also when I'm editing. I ask myself: 'what do I want this chapter to accomplish? What is the purpose of this scene?' It can be things like: 'I want Jim to finally understand Mary's motives.' Or: 'I want to signal that Fred is becoming impatient with Harry's lack of enthusiasm.' Or: 'I want the reader to understand that all isn't sweetness and light here, in this family—despite outward appearances.' Notice you don't say: 'I want Jim and Mary to have a fight.' What you are doing is establishing a purpose for that fight. That way you'll be slanting your writing so it contains more than just argue/argue/argue or banter/banter/banter. There'll be a deeper reason behind it all that will propel you into the next scene, and the next, etc. That way you write with purpose. It doesn't mean you must have pre-planned your story down to the last detail. It just establishes the direction you're taking the story. Of course any/all of these scenes can be changed or tweaked later on. But it's a good idea to know why you're writing them in the first place. It's like the difference between walking on a treadmill and walking down a street. The motions you're making are the same, and you are exercising the same muscles, but the treadmill doesn't take you anywhere. The street does.
Extra points for a really fitting analogy But I am exactly the opposite kind of writer. I write to explore and find out where plot threads lead. Not always with amazing results, I admit. But what makes writing so engaging to me is not knowing. Just picking a direction and going just for the sake of finding out what is out there to find. I suppose the best way to put it for me is that I know why I'm writing. I'm writing to break hearts, punch guts and occasionally kick groins. I'm writing for me. And so I write the same way I do everything, which is to just enjoy not knowing, enjoy trying to hold too much in my head at once, just slowly seeing the shape of something coming together out of chaos. That's part of why I think I don't have problems with getting blocked, because I'm not troubled with trifling concerns like "Where is this going?" or "Does this even make sense?" or even "Will other people even like this?". To extend your analogy; if a treadmill is walking that doesn't take you anywhere, and a street is walking that takes you where you want to go; I'm more trekking through forests without a map to find a place that no-one has found before. The journey is the purpose. And whatever I find might not be El Dorado, but it'll be something that's mine.
Whatever works for you, works! I'm all in favour of taking a journey, just to see what you find. However, when it comes to writing a story, or at least shaping one, it does help to have some idea of where the journey will go. I don't imagine you go walking in a forest while picking up groceries at a supermarket or attending a concert. You are going to have SOME idea of what the journey will yield when you start out. So you pick a particular path or choose a particular day to go walking because ...why? In your case, your 'why' seems to be that you want to discover what is there, in that unknown bit of forest. That IS a purpose, and it's good to go with it. It's a different purpose from you trying to find a shortcut to Grandma's house, which you are pretty sure is over that way—somewhere. Red Riding Hood had a purpose for walking in the woods. And so do you. Just a different purpose. If you can articulate your particular 'why' before you start, it will help focus your walk and your story (for yourself, and for your readers.). I have discovered that, for myself, finding a purpose for a scene before I write it, helps it to mean something. Otherwise it's just too easy to construct a wad of dialogue for its own sake, or show events that may be fun to write, but don't lead anywhere. It's when you go to write your NEXT scene that you've got problems, if you haven't got any idea what that previous scene was for. Of course if totally pantsing a scene helps you to realise afterwards what it was for, then more power to your arm. I've done that as well, and it can make for an interesting start to a story. However, I think that the more you write your way into a story, the less freedom you'll have to just go pantsing. If you ask yourself what you want the reader to take away from a scene, BEFORE you write it, it helps keep an emerging story on track.
I am certainly guilty of just writing a wad of dialogue. In my first drafts it's common to have single scenes of dialogue that are 10k long, people talking around in circles until I finally find the important thing for the story that's come out of them talking. I don't think it's the best process at all, and indeed whatever works for people works for them. But I think in this context of trying to avoid being blocked being in the habit of just writing and seeing what comes out is quite helpful, and particularly teaching yourself not to be too critical or too concerned about how it's coming out or how it fits together right now, I think makes it easier to avoid those mental blocks. You know that there's almost nothing here that's going to make it into the finished book so there isn't so much pressure on you, you know that there will be a lot of chaff and that's fine, you know that you'll have to cut it, but you also trust that eventually you'll come out with a nugget of gold from all that. And learning that I think is the key to pushing away writers block. Trusting that if you write long enough you will find what you're looking for makes it very hard to really be blocked because the answer is always just to write more. It gives you a different problem in terms of editing but it stops you ever having to deal with sitting around all day not knowing what to write. I wouldn't really advise anyone to write the way that I write because I'm a very specific type of crazy that it transpires most people aren't. But I would advise that people, even those who plan a lot, take a leaf out of this book when they are struggling to get into a flow with their writing. Loosen the reins, get off the path, accept that many steps will be missteps because it's worth it to take the one good step. Just taking two characters sitting them down and having them just have a conversation that slowly builds and becomes interesting and characterful and then turns into them talking about the main plot, that then becomes a revelation or someone cracking under the pressure, or something; learning that process I think can help anyone who's suffering from writers block.
Yes, you're totally right from that perspective. If you are blocked because you don't know yet what you want to write about, your method of finding out (which is akin to freewriting) is excellent. You never know what's going to turn up, do you! I'm kind of swanning in the dark with this perspective, because if I don't have something to write about, I'm not motivated to write. So discovery freewriting to me just feels like wasted time. I don't always know where a story is going, or what my characters are going to be like, or what their interactions will produce, but I've always got a good idea what I want to do with the whole thing. Hence my focus on scene and story purpose as I'm writing. That, in itself, can provide a sense of discovery. Why am I writing this scene? Oh ...YEAH...that's it! I have never worked with a physical outline, though. That I would find way too constricting.
