1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Plot idea feedback

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by GuardianWynn, Nov 17, 2017.

    So, a bit of backstory on me and this story. This story is the first I ever really tried writing and the reason I joined the forum. My first attempt was a failure and I have since tried to fix it multiple times on here. So some of you may be familiar with this plot idea. lol. But I feel, I might have finally come to a plot idea that might actually work! Or work better! lol.

    Thanks to @Nicoel for the idea. :D

    So. The plot of the book is about a villain who died. And her adventure in the afterlife, coming to terms with who she was and trying to redeem herself. Part of the concept here is that she was once a good person, who was a victim to some harsh things and eventually broke from the stress, becoming the villain she was til she died.

    I see this story as sort of as containing 3 sections. So I will use those as my explanation. I am curious if this sounds like a somewhat solid premise for a book and any flaws in this description you might see.

    Section 01.

    The MC Kerrin, wakes up in after-life prison. Not specifically because of what she did, the after life judges(Divine Animals) don't believe in punishing for its own sake. Yet, since she was powerful, she could hurt people unfairly in the afterlife and they don't plan to let her do this. But they also have sympathy to her situation.

    So the divine animals are using magic to force her to relive her earlier stages of her life, something she had forgotten long ago. This makes her realize how she became a monster that hurts people, and remembering how she was hurt was possible the most painful thing since originally being hurt.

    So this section contains flashbacks. I see it like a back and forth. Like, start with "evil" Kerrin, see a flashback of good Kerrin, and see her slowly return to good Kerrin. The final moment of this section being what originally broke her. Which was watching her son die. This is one of the big edits. Originally I kept the flashbacks throughout the entire story, trying to save the flash back of her son's death til the end. But I feel using it here would be much stronger. Any thoughts?

    Section 02.

    Kerrin is released from prison since she has no longer has a desire to hurt people. She is left broken and with no reason to live. Sort of a spiral of self destruction. Almost seeking death(yeah spirits can die.) This section I feel needs a bit more. So fair enough if you are thinking that. She eventually decides to return to her childhood home, to which she finds her son.

    Section 03.

    So, being with her son, she begins find her reason to want to live. The divine animals return and offer her something. They offer her a chance to help fight for them in an upcoming battle. A chance to save someone whose is still alive in the physical world, someone she wronged. But they assure her, that doing so would most likely lead to her death. They understand that she may not be willing to do that. So it is her choice.

    This section is about her weighing what is more important. To fight and die(for good, no second spirit realm lol) or stay by her sons side at the cost of not righting her wrong.

    The twist is the divine animals are freaking liars! Kerrin won't die. They mislead her because that way, they figure, she would feel much better about herself knowing that given a chance to right a wrong, even at a large cost to herself. She was willing to do it. So the end is her coming back from the battle and finally feeling, relief. Her journey to redemption may not be finished. But she has made a good first step.


    Other thing. I was thinking of including a prologue of before she died. Mainly because the divine animals are way stronger than her. So, she doesn't appear very powerful since she gets her butt kicked! This would give you a moment of seeing why she is so feared, at least to non-gods like the divine animals lol. Though as I write this. I realize that there is a second connection. The person that killed her(or rather help killed her) is the person the divine animals ask her to help save at the end. I could include this as a chapter 01 I suppose, but since the current chapter 01 idea consists of her already being dead. Seemed to do this as a prologue. Which I find funny cuz there is really no time jump.

    Okay, I believe that is everything. What do you guys think? Does this seem like interesting plot? Do you think I might finally have solved it and have a decent idea for a book on my hands?

    Go ahead, be harsh! Give me all the thoughts. Thank you.
     
  2. Surcruxum

    Surcruxum Member

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    Hmm.... it's not a bad idea. It's something i probably would read. But i do have a few questions though.

    She eventually decides to return to her childhood home, to which she finds her son.

    *Her son is dead, right? So... is it like her ghost son or a second son?

    So, being with her son, she begins find her reason to want to live. The divine animals return and offer her something. They offer her a chance to help fight for them in an upcoming battle. A chance to save someone whose is still alive in the physical world, someone she wronged. But they assure her, that doing so would most likely lead to her death. They understand that she may not be willing to do that. So it is her choice.

    *So what's her reason for living again? Is it redemption? Because honestly if her reason to be a villain is because the death of her son, for me, it's more sensible to stay by her son's side rather than to redeem herself of her crimes.

    This section is about her weighing what is more important. To fight and die(for good, no second spirit realm lol) or stay by her sons side at the cost of not righting her wrong.

    Pros and cons of fighting
    *Pro
    Redemption
    *Con
    Death
    Can't be with her son again.

    Judging from the backstory, it is more sensible to live with her son. She gets to live, she gets to be with her son, and she only had to live with the guilt. Agreeing with the animals would cost her everything. She gets to be free from her sins for what? A couple of hours before oblivion?

    Note that I'm considering the fact that the MC doesn't know this.

    The twist is the divine animals are freaking liars! Kerrin won't die. They mislead her because that way, they figure, she would feel much better about herself knowing that given a chance to right a wrong, even at a large cost to herself. She was willing to do it. So the end is her coming back from the battle and finally feeling, relief. Her journey to redemption may not be finished. But she has made a good first step.

    Not bad of a twist I'd say.

    Other thing. I was thinking of including a prologue of before she died. Mainly because the divine animals are way stronger than her. So, she doesn't appear very powerful since she gets her butt kicked! This would give you a moment of seeing why she is so feared, at least to non-gods like the divine animals lol. Though as I write this. I realize that there is a second connection. The person that killed her(or rather help killed her) is the person the divine animals ask her to help save at the end. I could include this as a chapter 01 I suppose, but since the current chapter 01 idea consists of her already being dead. Seemed to do this as a prologue. Which I find funny cuz there is really no time jump.

    Well it would be a good plot twist imo if the target is actually the murderer. So if you put it in chapter 1 it would change into...a moment of anticipation for the meeting i guess?

    As a reader i honestly think that a prologue is unnecessary, especially if it mostly consist of a fighting scene. Starting in death jail is ok and you don't really have to create a prologue just to tell that she's really powerful. You could do it in chapter 1 by narration or dialogue.

    Good luck with it :)
     
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  3. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    If you haven't already, I suggest you read the Divine Comedy (The whole thing, not just the first 1/3). Your idea is pretty much the same Idea: Traveling through the afterlife. It is divided into three sections, (Each layer of the afterlife helps the Pilgram see the errors of his life), and while it doesn't involve flashbacks, the Pilgrim meets people he knew in life and they discuss different things (Family, Politics, religion, love etc.)

    The only difference is that in the DC the Pilgram is a monk, while your character is a bad guy.
     
  4. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Hi. Thanks for the response.

    Let me respond to your questions.

    1. Dead son is the son she lost. She only had one. The childhood home reference is because the spirit world sort of mimmics the real world in its design. People ofen go back to where they were born. It makes meeting loved ones WAY easier. Essentially the point is she is drifting and eventually drifted back there.

    2. About her reason for living and the villain thing. She became a villain or abuser as a way to shelter herself from the pain at that event. It was a slippery slope to her forgetting like it was to be hurt. Alway hurting others to keep herself distant from her own pain.

    Her reason to live again is very much her son. Someone she wants to be near, wants to know.

    It would be more sensible to live with her son again for sure, but the guilt she has is insane. So, in that sense, I feel her situation isn't so simple. She is newly reformed and doubts herself and has a ton of guilt. Part of it would be in response to being happy. She doesn't thinks she deserves it.

    3. About the prologue. I didn't actually understand what you were saying there.
     
  5. orangefire

    orangefire Active Member

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    I really like the sound of this. It's definitely something I'd read once you write it. A couple things I thought I'd bring up.

    1.) You mention earlier that you originally wanted to have the flashbacks throughout the entire story. What if, instead of having a prologue, you extended the flashbacks to eventually lead to her own death. You'd know better than I do if that would work, but it seems like it might be something to continue based on what you described.

    2.) The spirit animals. I'm curious about them. What exactly are they? Have they always existed? Why are they animals? I'm guessing you plan to explore more of that in the book, but just thought I'd bring that up.
     
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  6. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry for the late reply. To answer your first question.

    Kerrin's flashbacks are only intended to show you "her good side". I used to use evil flash backs but I have come to the conclusion, she opens as a bad person in jail for murder. You sort of get that she is a bad person.

    So the flashbacks are to explain how she broke and part of what was used to rehibilitate her, being shown how gentle she once was, allowing her to strive to be that person again. So them leading to her death wouldn't make sense.

    Especially when I could just show her death first since it is the first event proceeding her death trial.

    2. They are former gods. Sort of. God has different uses here but for my purposes. Thing, so powerful you are god-like. Even god-like beings die, thus they arrive in the spirit realm. And they try to help others in the spirit realm by being guardians and judges among other things(spirit realm is a big place. They help family reunite or hide given your preference lol.)

    They are animals on purpose as a uniforn. Non-gods find changing form to be difficult. So they took the form of animals to act as a visual indicator of their rank and position.
     
  7. K McIntyre

    K McIntyre Active Member

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    I agree with @orangefire . This sounds really interesting, and like something I would enjoy reading. Keep up the good work!
     
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  8. Cloud Dancer

    Cloud Dancer New Member

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    The ultimate redemption story is, of course, a Christmas Carol with 1 Current Version of Scrooge, 2 Flashbacks to show him the error of his ways, and 3 The New Man. So yes, your section 2 is missing a lot. Section 2 is the meat of the story, where her real change takes place.

    Part 1
    She's a villain, whatever that means, whose spirit is incarcerated in a prison in Limbo. Her keepers are animal spirits, a reverse zoo effect. What is daily existence like for her in a prison in Limbo? The animals may not like punishment per se, but they have to have some way to keep evil /villainous spirits in line, and that's going to be something she doesn't like. What would happen if she managed to escape from the Limbo prison? Would she still be in Limbo, or would she be a spirit floating among living people? She would want to escape if at all possible.

    Theme
    As a story of redemption, you're showing for the readers what the right way to live is. What is the lie that Kerrin believes at the beginning of the story, and what truth does she learn and accept toward the end of the story? Scrooge believes the lie that a man is measured by his wealth, then learns the truth that a man is measured by his heart/giving. Perhaps she believes the lie that life has no value and learns the truth that all life has value?

    Part 2 (A and B)
     
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  9. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    That is a good point.
    Some notable plot differences. Scrooge ends with the new world view. My only really just gets started with it. Essentially trying to dive into how hard it is to truly change, not just the ephany.
    No real chance of her escaping prison and nothing for her to manage to do even if she did.
    The life lesson, that is an intersting thought I hadn't thought of. Well, Kerrin became dark because she lost her son and she her reasoning for living. She became a dark person only interested escaping her pain. As nicole mentioned to me in private. I made a mistake in my earlier anaylsis.
    Her son isn't her reason for living. Her son being all she cared about was her problem. SHe had to find that she wanted to live life for herself in order to become a more balanced person able to take on pain. Note sure how to covert that to a nice little line lol.
     
  10. Cloud Dancer

    Cloud Dancer New Member

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    There are various plotting books and systems out there, some easier to use than others. Here's one of the generic plot structures to try. If you're willing, post how yours looks using this, it might generate more ideas.
    A story is both plot (external events) and character change (internal/emotional events). FWIW.

    Section 1 (aka Act 1)
    A character in a bad situation faces opposition as he pursues their everyday existence goal. But when there is a disturbance, he is confronted with a dilemma regarding his situation and must assume a new role.

    Example: Billionaire weapons manufacturer Tony Stark is faced with ceremonies and responsibilities (his imperfect situation) and is reprimanded by his closest friends and advisors (opposition to his goal) because he'd rather chase skirts and be awesome (his everyday goal). But when he flies to Afghanistan to present his new missile to the military and is kidnapped by the terrorists (disturbance to his normal routine), Tony is faced with the dilemma of being forced to build them a missile or come up with an escape plan (dilemma) by building a weaponized suit of armor (the new role).

    Example 2: Tormented spirit Kirren is faced with an eternity of imprisonment in the Limbo Penitentiary for Harmful Spirits (her imperfect situation) and is made to endure attempts at rehabilitation (opposition to her goal) because she'd rather wallow in her pain and regret (her everyday goal). But when the Animal Spirit caretakers begin using magic to make her relive positive moments of her former life (the disturbance to her routine), she is forced to either act in rage and be put in "solitary" or to cooperate with them (dilemma) by attempting a path at redemption (the new role).

    Section 2 (aka Act 2A)
    Assuming his new role, the character must learn the rules of his new and unfamiliar situation and faces opposition while pursuing his new goal in his new role. But when things don't work out as planned pursuing this new goal, he makes a commitment to his new role.

    Example: Kirren has to endure the flashback visions of joyous events like her wedding and the birth of her son while still feeling the pain of her current state (the unfamiliar situation) and must overcome the pain and anger at how things turned out (opposition) while attempting her redemption/rehabilitation (new goal). But when ??? (things don't go as planned), she commits to do ??? towards becoming rehabilitated.

    This leads her into the story's central conflict where she faces intentional opposition in pursuit of her False Goal. But when there is a grave turn of events, she has a Moment of Truth.

    Example: Kirren must come to terms with reality (the central conflict) in the face of her now broken spirit (opposition) as she is released on parole from the Limbo prison in the care of her son's spirit (goal which will fail). But when she learns he is unwilling to forgive her and rejects her (grave turn of events), she feels she cannot be rehabilitated and returns to prison (Moment of Truth).

    (Act 2B)
    The character implements a doomed plan and faces self-inflicted opposition in pursuit of a new goal. But when an unthinkable low point occurs, he pulls himself together and discovers a Newfound Resolve.

    Example: Kirren is offered another opportunity, helping the man who killed her to prevent her killing more people in her enraged/drugged state (a doomed plan) and she enters the body of a just-died woman to help him stop another murderer (self-inflicted opposition). But when her current body is attacked by the murderer, ???

    Section 3 (aka Act 3)
    The character tries a longshot and faces ultimate opposition while trying to accomplish the ultimate story goal. But just when it seems all is lost, he makes a final push against the antagonist's forces, and either succeeds or fails.

    Example: Kirren has to use the dying body to ??? etc.

     
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  11. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I like the way you think.

    Though, now I am rethinking when is the true beginning.

    Like, let me try to use your format a bit. Perhaps that will help illustrate my ideas.

    Section one.

    Kerrin is carrying out a mission for someone. During such, she attempts to kill someone(Her every day goal by contining to hide from her pain), but fails and is killed. (I considred this being a prologue)

    Waking up in the spirit realm. Kerrin is confronted with the divine animals which are trying bring back her humanity(by forcing her to face her pain.) Her everyday goal is still to a void her pain.

    In order to give her this new perspective, they force her to relive(through an illusion) her old life before she lost her son. From this, she remembered what it felt like to be a victim, thus realizing how horrible of a person she became. She is released from the prison cell by Divine Animals.


    Section 02

    Released from jail, plaqued with guilt, she justs to not hurt(Her goal). Either by dying, or any way she can. Though, given her recent experience she can't hide her pain by hurting anymore.
    The only reason she doesn't try to die(again! lol) is because she feels she doesn't deserve it.

    People in the afterlife knew who she is and hate her, and her own guilt are her opposition to her goal. More ideas are needed her but one idea I had here was, for her to see someone who hated her and wanted to confront her. She originally avoids the situation for a while before realizing that she can't run. She has been doing that too long. She bucks up and faces the confrontation.

    It hurts her because she can do nothing for this man. She is too strong to lose and he won't accept her attempt at a dive. Thus she has to beat him, giving her another memory of hurting him, but hoping by giving him closure he can begin heal in his own way.


    Section 03

    She is reunited with her son and she tries to be happy(Her goal.) Her guilt is the opposition to her goal. Then it, a Divine Animal returns and asks for Kerrin's help. But they inform her that she will likely die if she accepts.

    So she is given this choice. A. Do what she feels is right but at the cost of giving her up son again. B. Ignore the call to action and be with her son.

    Everything she ever wanted was to be with her son, thus giving her choice weight. After spending a week with her son. She decides, she must do what is right, because she cannot exist with the guilt and that she was happy to be given a week. It was more than she deserved.


    Epilogue

    She survives the battle, doing so was easy. The Divine Animals tricked her. They felt the final piece of help they could offer was this trick. Because by making her feel like she was giving up everything. She proved to herself that being a good person was something she can manage. Making her feel like her redemption is possible. She realized she originally fell because she placed too much of her self in her son and when he died she had nothing left. So she needed more than just him to live. ANd her desire to redeem herself, and make amens for her past mistakes has become something that is giving her piece of mind before her soul finally sleeps eternally.

    Make sense? Wow tough to write it like that. lol.
     
  12. Cloud Dancer

    Cloud Dancer New Member

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    Okay, keep refining the details until the flow makes sense and you fill in the gaps. Then you'll have something to write towards. Based on what you said, section one might be refined to start as:

    Example: Kirren, ex-cop now turned vigilante, struggles with the death of her son murdered by a drug gang (the imperfect situation) and confronts various gang members (opposition) as she closes in on the drug-lord responsible (her initial goal).
     
  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I love it!

    There's less benefit in critiquing the plot or outline. Write the damn thing and get feedback on that. Even if the plot needs tweaking, that can be done with critique on your actual writing. And stories evolve as we write them.

    Be careful to keep this your story and not the story someone else would write. That doesn't mean critique isn't a critical part of writing, it is. Just be wary of people who tell you the story they would write if that isn't the story you would write.

    Not to be critical of the feedback in this thread. If it rings true to you, @GuardianWynn, that's great.

    Your plot is more than well enough developed to start writing. Go for it!
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  14. Cloud Dancer

    Cloud Dancer New Member

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    GingerCoffee is definitely right, every story evolves as the words flow to the page. There are two great pieces of advice about writing your stories... plot/outline with just enough information to give you your roadmap, then write write write! Just be sure you have enough detail in your plot outline to know where you're going, but not so much that it hinders your creativity. I've had more than my fair share of great first acts that, because I didn't do the plot outline first, I wrote myself into a corner and had to toss them. So write, write, write, and let us see what you come up with.
     
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  15. crappycabbage

    crappycabbage Member

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    I agree and relate with this. Having a rough plot and something to write towards, while still keeping it loose enough to change along the way; that's what worked for me when it came to finishing my first novel. Like Cloud Dancer, I have so many stories consisting of only a beginning behind me (due to lack of conflict and goals), and that didn't change until I started to outline a bit before I start writing. Just a rough outline. It's often a matter of plot-write-plot-write and repeat, but a few major plot events, obstacles and an ending ahead of the writing makes all the difference for me. The best of luck with your story, I love the "from bad-to-good" character arc in that. Hang in there. :)
     
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  16. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    @GingerCoffee
    @Cloud Dancer
    @crappycabbage

    Oh I know what you guys mean. I didn't start this thread for people to write the story for me. And I have written this story before!
    Actually years before. I joined this forum because of this story. My original attempt was a failure. And for a while it was just sitting their not doing anything. But recently my girlfriend had a breakthrough idea.
    I started this thread because I wanted to keep the ball rolling on breakthroughs before beginning the rewrite.
     
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  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    That's great!
     
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  18. Cloud Dancer

    Cloud Dancer New Member

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    A few more things as you're letting your thoughts on the story gel. (1) Reread the seven stages of grief, and decide which stage she is in at the beginning of your story, so you know which stages she'll enter as she proceeds. (2) At some point, you're going to need to flesh out what the afterlife looks like in your story, and the rules of that world, so you can be consistent. (3) Remember to keeps people's actions and reactions believable within the context of your story. A woman is not going to go around murdering people because her son died unless they had something to do with it (revenge), and there are numerous ways to be "bad", like being drunk all the time (booze or drugs) to avoid the pain. Likewise the stakes would have to be pretty high to choose going into a suicidal situation instead of staying with her son. Read Maslov's needs pyramid to understand the priorities people put on things.
     
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  19. K McIntyre

    K McIntyre Active Member

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    Your mentioning the seven stages of grief reminded me of something I need to think about with my WIP. My protagonist has gone through hell, and is now trying to start over. She is most certainly grieving over what was lost to her (her innocence, her future ...), and I think a review of the stages is in order. Sorry - I didn't mean to take this thread off topic, but thought you should know I appreciate what you said.
     

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