1. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England

    Individual existing in seperate timeline

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by OurJud, Nov 18, 2017.

    I spent a good few hours trying to get my head around the theoreticals and logistics (or should that be illlogistics) of this, and came only to the conclusion that not even a metaphysicist could work it out. See if you can fare any better.

    If an individual existed in a timeline of their own (let's say 30 minutes ahead of everyone else's timeline, although the value makes no real difference) how would this manifest itself for both the individual and the people sharing the 'normal' timeline? In terms of story telling, imagine the individual's existence being told in first-person, and everyone else's in third.

    To make things easier, let's imagine a party scenario, to which this person has been invited.

    At first, and from the POV of the people sharing the normal TL, I simply imagined this person arriving at the party (I can't even get my head around whether they'd arrive 30 minutes early or 30 minutes late) and seemingly behaving very oddly. They would appear to be addressing people who were not there, or who were located in a place different to where the individual was addressing them (because in his timeline, they were/are going to be there).

    But then the whole 'cause and effect' science comes into play and I began wondering if this person could even have a mass in either timeline, because surely, if they did, they would be bumping into people in the shared timeline (who were not in that place during his timeline) and closed doors (which were open in his timeline). And of course, if they did try and walk through a closed door, this means they can't have walked through the open door in their own timeline... or does it?

    Presumably, from his POV, everything would appear normal... I think. And don't even get me started on how things would be if his timeline was 30 minutes behind o_O
     
    Sir Douglas likes this.
  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    I would think that people who exist in a different timeline would stay within their particular timeline. The people at that party are in a specific timeline, so they would only see what is happening in their timeline ...ie, they'd be seeing the guy as he is in their timeline. I don't think a person can be two places at once. So if he's at the party, he's in a specific timeline. If he's also been at the party 30 minutes earlier, he won't be crossing back and forth ...at least not so others can see.

    However, this is all speculation, so as long as you construct a reason why somebody's body can be in two places at the same time doing two different things, then fair enough.

    I think it might be more plausible if he 'remembers' having had a conversation earlier. The old deja vu thing.
     
  3. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    Yes, because just existing in a separate timeline is plausible. When you start talking about a person being in two different places at the same time it all gets a bit silly :p

    I do see your point, but if what you describe were the case, then what you're suggesting is alternative dimensions, not timelines.
     
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Then there's the two-dimensional thing.... parallel universes.... :twisted:
     
  5. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    Yes, but I want to look at the ramifications of existing in a time frame separate to your own.

    It's an unfathomable concept, isn't it?
     
    jannert likes this.
  6. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    It's an interesting one.

    Myself, I'm pretty much convinced that time is linear. Time measures what has happened, and promotes the notion that things will continue to happen. I've never bought into the notion of time travel, either backwards or forewards. But then again, I'm no physicist. I could be convinced otherwise, if the story was convincing enough!

    I have experienced a few times where things have been predicted that later came true. The kinds of things that made no sense at the time, but when they did happen ...well, they happened exactly as predicted. So I'm not closed to the concept.
     
  7. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    @jannert

    This is comedy, but it kind of deals with the subject matter. In this episode the crew are travelling at faster-than-lightspeed and as a consequence are seeing 'future echoes' (events taking place before they've actually happened).

    This is perhaps an example of how it might be for both parties (if the 'play from here' doesn't work, fast forward to 12.20.

     
  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    I love Red Dwarf!
     
    OurJud likes this.
  9. SanderPander

    SanderPander Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    22
    I would imagine the person in the shifted timeline (by x minutes/hours/days/etc.) would appear in the regular timeline almost as a ghostly figure. Especially so if the shifted timeline also moves at a different pace, i.e. a minute in the shifted timeline only takes 50 seconds in the regular timeline, something like that. But not sure if that's what you were going with (or maybe I gave you a new idea).

    An alternate thought experiment could be to imagine two TV screens both playing the same movie, but one TV screen is playing the movie 30 minutes ahead of the other. If you were to merge the streams displayed on the two screens, it would become a jumbled mess. That might be what it would like in real life as well, a jumbled mess.

    @jannert , I'm of the school of thought that views time as non-linear, especially when you view it as another spatial dimension. I'm also not a physicist, but have spent some time thinking about this. If time is the 4th dimension, then you should be able to move around in it, just like we can in our three physical dimensions. Of course, once you start thinking about the ramifications of how each new decision you make will branch off into potentially infinite directions, it all becomes very mind boggling. Some people (I believe they're physicists) theorize that there are an infinite number of parallel dimensions, the multi-verse, and constantly new universes (universi?) are being created as whenever someone makes a decision, an infinite number of new possibilities emerge.
     
    jannert likes this.
  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    That's interesting, and I think lots of stories have been based on this idea. It's a good one.

    Myself, I tend to believe that what happens, happens. Of course everything has a ripple effect, and lots of things CAN happen, and what one person does will affect another, or a circumstance can change the significance of an event, or even change the event to something other than what was intended, but in essence only one thing actually happens. And when that one thing happens, the possibility that other things happened instead vanishes. That's it.

    There might have been infinite possibilities before it happens, but there is only one outcome. You can have sex one time, and either get pregnant or not get pregnant. Only one or the other actually happens. You do or you don't. You can't get both outcomes from that one experience. And the notion that you're pregnant here but not pregnant in some parallel universe doesn't really do anything for me, because we only live here in this universe. There's no real point in thinking we might be somewhere else doing something else as well.

    So I believe time is linear, and that it measures what HAS happened ...not what might have happened. But thinking about it does pose some fairly mind-boggling what-ifs—certainly when it comes to story possibilities.
     
  11. Skibbs

    Skibbs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2017
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hmmm, that's a tricky one - certainly. If I were you, I'd be focusing on linking the character to an example. I mean - if you were to link the person to a hallucination - you can wrap your head around it easier. Alongside this - if the mass of this character existed in the same time-line as everyone else's - surely matter still exists, so bumping into doors is realistic. Just because he is perceiving the future - it doesn't mean his mass isn't in the present. I would also add that (unless a building is demolished or changed) - doors handles are still in the same places, so physical objects like that can be interacted with whether he is in present/past or future. However, I would worry slightly as he may not perceive the door opening (as it may not open in the future/past, even if it does in the present). Good luck with this task - I am sure it will be Herculean!
     
  12. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    Sorry, I failed to mention (and maybe I shouldn't have posted this in the writing help section) that this isn't for any kind of project. It was just something I started wondering about - no intention of using this idea in any way.
     
  13. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    Let me see if I understand this:
    • At 5:00, he drives up to an intersection and turns left.
    • At 5:30, he drives up to another intersection and turns right.
    At 5:00, he perceives himself to be at 5:30 and to be at the intersection where he turns right instead of left, and so the decision in his mind – again, at the 5:00 intersection where he's supposed to turn left – is instead "turn right."
     
    OurJud likes this.
  14. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    [​IMG]
     
    Simpson17866 likes this.
  15. Skibbs

    Skibbs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2017
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yep, that's how I see it if he were perceiving things in the future.
     
  16. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,771
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    As far as I know (which aint much) the timelines are divorced from each other by definition and incapable of affecting each other. They would literally be in a fourth dimension that could not intersect, which isn't the same as time travel, where a person moves backwards or forwards along the same timeline.

    String theory maybe? Paging @newjerseyrunner...
     
  17. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    Just for the record: "in a fourth dimension" isn't what this means.

    Dimensions are sets of direction, they are not places that you can be. If a pair of 2-dimensional surfaces existed parallel to each other – one at 0 height in the 3rd dimension and the other at 1 height in the 3rd dimension – then a 2-dimensional person who jumps from one plane to the other is not "in the third dimension," she is is another 2-dimensional world.
     
  18. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,771
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Yeah, I could be totally wrong, but I think there comes a time (quantum mechanics?) When x, y, z are no longer sufficient to define the location of an object because there are various timelines that exist simultaneously in the traditional 3 dimensions of physical space. Not sure. That shit is super heady.
     
  19. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    I think you can fudge it in a way that only technical people would notice. String theory's version of time is nearly identical to that of General Relativity. Both have solutions called Einstein-Rosen bridges, where spacetime can connect to itself in strange ways. In General Relativity, such objects could only be exist if they have always existed (spacetime can not be torn.) In String theory, spacetime is not continuous and is constantly ripping and stitching itself back together. Perhaps you could use that to tear and re-stitch spacetime to fit your needs. You'd have to handwave a lot of stuff though and you'd never end up in a seperate timeline.

    You could use the multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics for a framework where time is constantly branching. It's fallen out of favor among physicists for the superposition interpretation, but without any evidence in either direction, it's still perfectly possible that the universe is constantly splitting itself every time a quantum particle interacts with something.
     
    Homer Potvin likes this.
  20. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    But that's just a more precise description of the location where something already is ;)

    If I describe the (x,y) coordinates of an object as being (3,5), then realize that there is a 3rd dimension and that the (x,y,z) coordinates are (3,5,1), I haven't "gone into the third dimension" :)

    Philosophically, I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the idea that the number of universes in existence multiplies by 10^(stupidly large number) at every smallest possible fraction of a second.
     
    Sir Douglas likes this.
  21. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    Sort of. It's called superposition and it's relevant to every piece of math in quantum mechanics. Particles do not have exact locations while we know their motion, they have an infinite number of places that they can be with a variety of probabilities for each one. You can know a particle's exact position, but then you can't know it's exact motion.

    In GR, you also can not pinpoint a location by x,y,z, you'd also need the reference frame as spacetime is flexible and (1,1,1) is not (1,1,1) for everyone.
     
    Homer Potvin and Simpson17866 like this.
  22. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    It’s actually infinite.

    I’m not sure why that’d be a philosophical problem as there are plenty of other infinities in physics. It’s believed that space is infinite in all directions (we simply can’t see it because of causality.). It’s also believed that time is infinite in the forwards direction (and there are several models that have it infinite backwards as well.). I see no reason that a dimension perpendicular to time would not be infinite.
     
    Simpson17866 likes this.
  23. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,771
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    I knew I shouldn't have wasted my formative years on history degrees and culinary training...
     
  24. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    ... That's actually a lot easier for me to wrap my head around :bigmeh:

    Thank you.
     
    newjerseyrunner and Homer Potvin like this.
  25. Not Ready to Say

    Not Ready to Say Active Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    42
    Location:
    In a small room, on a computer
    Sorry, but I wanted to deconstruct this, if I may.

    If he were to appear to the "past", then it would be as a physical being. Him being perceived by other people to be there would mean he is, but he also exists in the future, meaning he is like two dots on the same timeline representing the same object at the same time. As for the tvs, that'd be looking at it from both the person 30minutes ahead and everyone else. It'd be more like if one actor from the move fastforwarded 30 minutes was acting that part, but 30 minutes earlier.

    As for time being able to be moved about in, it is relatively. According to your perspective, you'll always be in the present, but to everyone else, you'll either be in the future, or from the past.

    A way to explain this would be inter-dimensional wormholes, which allow one object to exist in two points in space at the same time. Also because gravity effects time, that could explain the time leap. The problem is a human being would die instantly, but no matter. This could explain why they're acting 30 minutes ahead of "schedule".

    This was all my opinion with some fact, so if you don't agree. Huzzah.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice