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  1. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    Sentences

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by OJB, Nov 22, 2017.

    @Seven Crowns (I'm tagging you cause you are the Grammar Guru.)

    Recently I've noticed people defending sentences that are not really a sentence.

    To be clear, a sentence has two parts: The Subject (who the sentence is about) and the Predicate (What the Subject did.)

    Example: Mike (subject)// ran into the store (Predicate)

    Now, what I've seen lately is people just typing phrases (The rising sun in the west.) and trying to claim that they are a sentence; they're not.

    What I believe people have been reading in books -and this is where I want some of you Grammar Guru to chime in- is that people have been reading phrases that are being used as interjections.

    An interjection is a word or phrase that serves no Grammatical function and acts as an expression of thought. Interjection may be separated from the main clause with a , ? ! or .

    I picked up a book and did some looking and here is an example of what I am talking about.

    -

    He would be exalted by his lust, instead of despised for it. But no. No women, no sighs. Only these sexless things, with their corrugated flesh. (Clive Barker's the hellbound heart.)

    -

    The above -I believe- is one sentence. You have the main clause, followed by three phrases I believe are acting as interjections that express the character's disappointment.

    What I've been running into a lot in the workshop as of late is just phrase after phrase, but there is no main clause or some other type of phrase that can't be used as an interjection (appositive phrases.)

    I am curious about how people view the use of phrases.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  2. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    I like phrases. I find them useful and interesting. I use them like Clive Barker does, though I only just learned that. I know diddly squat about the technical aspects of writing. Couldn't tell you what a predicate is, but I could tell you if a "sentence" is a sentence or a phrase. I haven't thought about the use of phrases much; I just feel em out. Here's two phrases and a sentence I wrote based on your example:

    Let's say it's the start of the story, that these are my first three sentences. Are the interjections acceptable as long as they're ultimately tied to a sentence and contain all the bits that make it so?
     
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  3. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Sure. A sentence has a subject and a predicate by definition. However, not all strings of words delineated by periods are sentences, as you evidenced with examples of interjections and fragments.

    No, I would not consider that one sentence because of the presence of periods, which I suppose amends the definition to something like A sentence is a string of words that contains a subject and a predicate and is entirely contained between its own period and the period that preceded it.

    I suppose that definition assumes an overarching belief that any string of words separated by periods can be called a "sentence," but that probably comes from an inclination for simple classification than anything else.
     
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  4. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    Yes, but the grammatical rules of an interjection state that a period can be used to separate them from the main clause.


    Interjections are meant to express (emotion?)

    Example:

    Fuck. Damn. Shit. I stubbed my toe.

    The highlighted portions are interjections expressing frustration that has occurred because of the main clause, but how far one can push such an idea is something I am not sure on. (Hence this thread.)
     
  5. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    Ah, okay. I think I may be too ignorant of the technical aspect of writing to actually contribute much here then.
     
  6. Spacer

    Spacer Active Member

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    Those are implied subjects. In diagramming, this is shown in brackets.

    • He would be exalted by his lust, instead of despised for it.
    • But no.
    • [There were] No women, no sighs.
    • [There were] Only these sexless things, with their corrugated flesh.
    Whether the subject is There were or He had or whatever needs to be figured out by context.

    I suppose the second is in fact an interjection. It doesn’t explain anything, but merely sets the mood for the statements that follow.

    I dislike writing like this. It’s common in informal conversational speaking, but in writing I really prefer to have proper punctuation and complete sentences.

    An abundance of non-sentence utterances with no real connection is something I see in advertising, and loathe it there. So I would not enjoy a story written in such a style.
     
  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Artist can do whatever they want. Seriously, when you are writing something creative, it's not the same as a high school essay. A sentence can be one word. A paragraph can be one sentence or even one word. When done well, a fragment can be more powerful than a full sentence sometimes.
     
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  8. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I love the example you used. I’ve read that book twice. It’s short, so no big deal. I was actually reading some of Clive’s stories earlier today. (Mainly: Sex, Death, and Starshine. Skins of the Fathers.)

    Here’s the line without the stylistic comma, making it grammatical, but not nearly as good.

    He would be exalted by his lust instead of despised for it; but no, there were no women, no sighs, only these sexless things, with their corrugated flesh.​

    Two long sentences would probably work better . . . whatever.

    The second section is where the craziness is going on. You’re right, IMO. “But no” is an interjection. It’s followed by a bunch of noun phrases none of which have a verb. Those lines are using nothing but stylistic connectives. The effect is really pretty elegant. Going back to the original, I would chop it apart like this:
    • But no. (Interjection. Rhetorical fragment.)
    • No women, no sighs. (Parataxis. As an example see: veni, vidi, vici. The ideas get crammed together and balanced equally. Here, the ideas are just noun phrases.)
    • Only these sexless things . . . (One big noun phrase. “Only” is an adverb that is looking for something to modify, so it’s reaching backward, and that’s how CB’s getting sentence cohesion with it, which is a paragraph-level trick. Very clever.)
    Of course, CB didn’t write it thinking this way. He just innately felt it, I think, and that’s how the words came out. Still, if you’re trying to learn technique from it, you have to have some way to explain it. Then it becomes a part of you.

    Ignoring dialog, fragments get used for three reasons.
    • Emphasis (keeping only the necessary words)
    • Making the idea memorable
    • Slowing down the prose through punctuation
    The danger is that a writer leans on them too much. They start thinking “time for emphasis!” and plop down a fragment. Again. That’s probably what you’re seeing in your crits. When you see the same device over and over, even though it’s clever in miniature, it overpowers at the paragraph and scene level. It’s as if you had someone who’d just discovered alliteration, and every other sentence was “conquering kings” or “use your ukulele.” I don’t think anyone would disagree that it’s a mistake because it points to a lack of breadth. The reader picks up on that, and it gets in the way of the story. But when you mention it to the writer, you get “that’s my voice,” which is fine, but . . . Not much you can do, I guess.

    I think (just an empty opinion) that the number one mechanic that kills a story is rhythm. And repetitions of structure, phrasing, and style are a part of rhythm.

    I've gone on too long again . . . I won't spend time explaining it, but IMO, you need a perfect grammar as a foundation or the style fails. Since fragments are easy to drop in, it's common for the surrounding text to not be strong enough to hold them. You have to have the right setting for a diamond or it looks like it's been bedazzled. Don't bedazzle your fragments.
     
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  9. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Damn, son... that's some deep shit right there.
     
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  10. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    @Seven Crowns

    Thank you for providing your insight into this; I know you have a stronger understanding of language than I do.

    I want to touch on this because it is really important. I believe most writers 'learn' things to the point that it is second nature then it starts appearing in their work effortlessly. I bring this up because I believe that people need to learn the fundamentals (Sentence building, diction, punctuation) before they start throwing in advanced literary devices into their works.

    This attitude has led to more 'artist' quitting on the dreams than anything else. I've read work where the artist did whatever they wanted; their work wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Art is created with self-restriction (rules) and imagination (ideas to build on those rules). Art is not content. Art is not form. Art is content built with form.
     
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  11. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I agree 100%. I think we have the exact same writing philosophy.

    I feel that writing's not a free for all. The fundamentals really do count. As you get more of them behind you, the whole world opens up. It's kind of like those jazz musicians who can improvise at will. There's a mountain of theory within them, and they've gotten to the point where the music flows and it seems like magic. And yeah, there's talent, sometimes a lot of it, but mostly there's hard work.

    So you always push forward.
     
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  12. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I think this is true of many if not all creative pursuits. I know from personal experience it's true with dance (as a former dancer teacher who nagged "you have to learn the rules and obey them for a good long while until you can break them without looking like a fool"), and I'd bet it's also true with drawing, music, film making, etc.
     
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  13. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    YES! I treat writing like how I treat Dance (I think we've talked about how dancing/music ends up in our works before.)

    -

    I agree. I always try to push one step forward with each story I write.
     
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  14. GB reader

    GB reader Contributor Contributor

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    As a mere amateur I follow this with joy.
    It feels like
    --
    I am 11 years old. I should be in bed sleeping, but I am standing at the doorpost and looking at the tv. My mother and father are watching some grownup film (Hitchcock). I think someday I will be able to do that.
    --
    You are 11 years old, your father has taken you to this foreign planet. The creatures living there are very different to us, but also very similar. They have 4 legs that can be used as legs as well. They can walk on any 2 (or 3) of these. One day your host takes you to a toy shop. You see all those shiny toys, but you have no idea how they work or how you are supposed to play with them.
    --
    You are 11 years old. One day the local newspaper has sent a reporter. What do they pupils want to be when they grow up?
    “I want be a police.”
    “I want to be a doctor, as my mother.”
    “I want to be a teacher that can stand in front a class and say “Don't bedazzle your fragments” , and all the students will understand what I mean.
    --

    Thank you all, but extras to @OJB and @Seven Crowns
     
  15. Spacer

    Spacer Active Member

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    Hm?
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Is the conversation really about whether these things should be called "sentences" or is it about whether they should be used?

    I don't think they should be called sentences, and I don't think they're part of other sentences around them. They're fragments.

    Should they be used? If they work, yes. If not, no.
     
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  17. GB reader

    GB reader Contributor Contributor

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    Well, they are strange creatures.
    --
    Of course it should be arms, sorry.
     
  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think artists are giving up on there dreams because they used sentence fragments. Seriously, there is something known as an artistic license that lets you ease up, ignore or change some of the rules. Sorry if you don't like books that do that, but plenty of people do and these books are being published so I don't see how those people gave up on their dreams. Writers have been using sentence fragments for a long time. This is nothing new. And art can be whatever you want it to be, said one artist at least.
     
  19. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    That word doesn't mean what you think it means. It means using literary craft -writing is a craft, like carpentry, I know it's hard to believe- to give ideas life. It doesn't mean 'do-what-you-want.'

    The conversation isn't rather or not they should be used; the conversation is about WHEN they should be used, which I believe it when they have a strong supporting sentence or paragraph to back them, not because the someone thought it was a 'good idea.'
     
  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @OJB -- I'm not trying to piss you off. I just see things differently. But that's okay. I'm going to back off this discussion. Good luck.
     
  21. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    This is something I've noticed in my own writing, and I'm not sure if I'm vajazzling my fragments or not, but I do know that I've got a certain rhythm to my writing, and there are a lot of fragments in it. Also a lot of sentences that, while technically not run-ons, go on for frikking ever.

    Good food for thought.

    Back to the OP's question though, I suspect this stemmed from a "Share Your First Three Sentences" post that had a one-word "sentence" in it. I agree that fragments aren't technically sentences, and I wouldn't allow them in my classes, but when posting here, I think that counting fragments as sentences in the aforementioned thread is in keeping with the spirit of the rules laid down there.
     
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  22. Spacer

    Spacer Active Member

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    As opposed from giving up on here dreams?
     
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  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Sure, I made a mistake. Thanks for making me feel real good about it.
     

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