1. beehoney

    beehoney Member

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    What’s the best way to avoid a mary sue?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by beehoney, Jan 19, 2018.

    Hello Writing-Community,


    I think everyone knows it. You wrote a spectacular, awesome story. However, something sounds wrong.—It’s the character!

    Especially, writing beginners like me have this problem.

    But readers won’t like to read a story where the main characters can do everything, where he/she is famous and popular. That’s boring.

    So, what’s the best way to avoid a Mary Sue character?


    Good day,

    beehoney
     
  2. surrealscenes

    surrealscenes Senior Member

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    Add flaws? Is this some sort of trick question?
     
  3. beehoney

    beehoney Member

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    @surrealscenes It’s just the thing when you add flaws you often forget them while you write!
     
  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    This could be more of a memory issue than a writing issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  5. mirammda

    mirammda New Member

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    I think you should start by writing down your character's traits and their background. In that way it'll be easier for you to not forget about their flaws and what make them the way they are now.
     
  6. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    My best advice would be not to give it too much thought.

    I feel like people who use the term Mary Sue often are the same people who make traits and flaws into little lists that are never seen again. Try to just write the character as a person. I feel like that is a shitty explanation, but I can't put it in better words right now.
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'd say the best way to avoid creating a Mary Sue is to be aware of the concept. I think most people who write Mary Sue-like characters aren't aware they're doing it. They love their characters and spend the entire story making life as easy as they can for these characters. But if you're aware, you can take steps to tone it down.

    I'd say the very first and best thing to avoid is making things too easy for your character. If every problem gets solved without much bother, you've probably got a Mary Sue. If your character possesses every skill to deal with every situation they face, then you probably have a Mary Sue.

    Challenge your character, and make things difficult—very difficult, even impossible—for them to overcome. And give them a chance to grow and develop throughout your story. They need to make mistakes and bad decisions, to lose, to face rejection and defeat, to give in, even to give up. They can win in the end, of course, but their eventual success needs to be in doubt for most of the story.
     
  8. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Flaws and limitations.

    "Adding" flaws is a bit of a misnomer; finding them might be more accurate. You shouldn't just pick words off a list of negative attributes and throw them in. Flaws need to rise organically out of a character's personality.

    For example, one of my recurring characters has lost a lot of friends over the years, so she hates putting the ones she still has at risk, and tries doing everything herself. Sometimes it works out, sometimes her friends have to save her, but choosing to go it alone always results in avoidable injuries and more risk than necessary.

    I consider limitations to be 1) the physical laws of the story's world binding the character, 2) skills the character either doesn't have at all or isn't very good at, and 3) Self-imposed limits.

    The first one is fairly self explanatory. If you fall off a cliff, the impact will injure if not kill you. You can only run so fast. You can't just flap your arms and fly. Magic and technology can shift these physical boundaries, but they should have their own drawbacks and limitations. The second is quite broad. Your character might be awful at dancing, a poor shot, completely incapable of fixing something, etc. The last one includes things like morality or what's legal. Batman's refusal to kill is a good example of this. Taken far enough, you might be able to argue these self-imposed limits turn into flaws.

    Remember that, in order to avoid being a Mary Sue, the flaws or limitations have to have an actual impact on the story. There are a lot of fanfic Sues who are supposedly clumsy, but never trip or anything like that in a dramatic situation.
     
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  9. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    While the rest of your post was spot on - I'm debating with myself if I agree with the first part. In theory it's all sound, but as I was going for in my first post I feel like it can be the other way around. A lot of people I've seen discussing Mary Sues seems to fall into their character making problem when they're trying too hard not to write a Mary Sue. If that makes sense.

    So yes, you're probably right, but sometimes it seems like being aware of the concept is as damaging as not being aware of it. I guess it would come down to what the writer does with the knowledge.
     
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  10. EstherMayRose

    EstherMayRose Gay Souffle Contributor

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    I think that the best advice is to make the character's flaws actually hinder them in a way. A lot of bad fanfic writers angrily point out flaws when people use the term "Mary-Sue" in reviews. The most famous Mary-Sue, Ebony (or Enoby, Eboby, Enony, Egogy, or Tara), star of the infamous My Immortal, was depressed and a Satanist. However, it's doubtful whether she actually was depressed, and it was clear that the author thought that these were both glamorous things to be. Another Mary-Sue had a "temper problem". However, all it did was give her a few dramatic exits and brooding sessions, rather than actually angering any of her friends in turn. Flaws aren't flaws unless there are consequences.

    Another, although this applies more to fanfiction really, is to make sure that the rules of the universe aren't bent for your character. If everyone is dark-haired, don't make them blonde and gorgeous. Don't give them more powers than anybody else. And for the love of God, if the original revolves around a "Chosen One", don't make your character the Other Chosen One. And don't give them a tragic backstory that defies all reason. That's another thing: big tragic backstories, abusive/dead parents (sometimes both), evil siblings, a life on the run, perhaps resulting in mental illness (usually the truly debilitating I Need Cuddles, Feel Sorry for Me Syndrome). This, I find, is often used to excuse all their unkind actions, allow them to do "cool" and "edgy" things (brood a lot), and make the audience feel sorry for them rather than liking them because they're a well-structured character.

    And also, shy from superlatives. Don't make them the best. Don't make their backstory the most tragic. Don't make them the most beautiful. Just make them "good", I find. It'll avoid eye-rolls from the audience. Besides, if they're The Best Swordsman in the World and they're taking on the Big Bad in a sword fight, where's the tension?

    To avoid all this, let your character appear to you naturally. Find out more about them as you would a real person. Get to know them like they're your best friend. Then think carefully, not about what would be the best thing to do in this instance (it's quite a common trap that I've fallen into more than a few times), but about what they would do.

    And springhole.net has a bunch of stuff about Mary-Sues. If you're worried about a particular character, then the Universal Mary-Sue Litmus Test is actually quite fun (just make sure you read the instructions properly). Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  11. raine_d

    raine_d Active Member

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    Actually, a quick and probably cheating way to help head off MarySueism, I think is... give the character a name you don't care for.

    Seriously (okay, maybe not totally seriously).

    Or make them do something wrong, silly, nondeliberately funny every so often (not too often, we don't want Mary Stupid either)

    I think the main thing that makes for a Mary Sue is that the author identifies with, and glorifies in their own mind, their character. They're too close. So the way out is to create a little distance - not so much that you can't identify and empathise, but you can also criticise your darling. A name, an offputting taste in something or other, a less quirky and more irritating habit they won't break. Look for a few traits that actually would annoy you in a real person, and see if you can make them part of the character. Not too many, just enough for the distance.

    It's also not a bad idea to make sure that of the other good characters - the ones you like and want the reader to like, what in for instance tie-ins and fanfiction would be the canon characters - there are at least seem who don't think he/she is so great, and give them valid reasons for this (a firm trait of a Mary Sue is that all the author's favourites in the story love her, and all the author's clear unfavourites don't appreciate her as they so clearly should).
     
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  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    This is just a question I was wondering about.

    Is it easier to inadvertently create a Mary Sue in certain genres? I keep seeing them cropping up in fantasy, for example, where characters have 'powers' and the world order can be exactly as the author wants it to be. It might be difficult to envision a teenager in our own universe being 'perfect in every way.' However it seems easier to do so in a fantasy, where the young person has 'superpowers.'

    Just curious.

    It's also interesting to think about love. Are the people you truly love 'perfect?' I don't mean people you have a crush on from afar, but people in your real life whom you would be devastated to lose. Are these people perfect? Gorgeous, with green eyes and a perfect figure, etc? Or are they people who attract you for other reasons? Maybe they 'get' you when nobody else seems to. Maybe they show kindness where it's not expected. Possibly they are forgetful, or never get anywhere on time, but you love them anyway, because they are good people. Maybe their face isn't fashion model pretty or handsome, but you love their face because nobody else has a face just like theirs. Maybe they are prickly people and hate being contradicted, but because you know their history and understand why they react to criticism that way, you love them all the more.

    In other words ...if the people you love aren't perfect, then why do your characters need to be? I reckon they will be loved by your readers if you can present them as if they are real people who behave in believable ways based on what their lives have been like thus far.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  13. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    I think the best way to avoid one is to employ a few very basic story telling techniques, but are surprisingly often ignored.

    PLOT: Plots involve a exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution. And these five points are interconnected. This is real basic literature, but it pretty much goes like this: Decent stories have this, excellent stories master this, and bad stories ignore it. While this could be a problem anywhere in the story, but mostly the issue comes with the rising action. Either the pace isn't even or the information isn't being relayed real well or you can just do what Gabby Rivera does and just don't bother with rising action at all.

    This might not seem like it has a lot to do with characters, but it has everything to do with characters. Let's go back to Gabby Rivera. She wrote for Marvel Comics and did a book called "America." What she would do is introduce this threat and the hero. The threat would do a couple things here and there. Then for three or four issues of this comic, the hero America would literally not do anything. She would go to school. She would hook up with a girlfriend. Complain about this or that. But nothing she did for these three or four issues was building towards this confrontation that's supposed to happen. So after slogging through these pointless issues you wasted $5 on, you'd finally get to the climax. Well, no one cares by that point.

    In a basic hero's journey story structure, the hero begins the story unable to defeat the threat. So that hero sets out on a journey and through this journey encounters many trials and endures great sacrifice that strengthens the hero until he or she is finally able to come face to face with this villain. This is where your hero grows. If the hero doesn't grow, they become that Mary Sue. So keep that in mind.

    GOALS, MOTIVES, AND CONFLICTS: So we've established the character has to be on a journey. So why? What changes in that character's life that inspires them to go on that journey, make that sacrifice and fight that villain? This is where you have to establish, What does the hero want? This goal part, is going to be fluid. That character's goals in the beginning of the story before he or she can defeat the villain, won't be the same as while he or she is on the journey. As this character learns more about life, his or her goals will shift.

    There has to be a motive behind what the character is doing. And then there has to be a conflict or things that stand in the character's way of success.
     
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  14. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Watch the new Star Wars films.

    Don't write a character like Rey.

    Seriously.

    If at *any* point during the development of your story, you have to write a "DO YOU KNOW HOW TO FLY THIS THING?!" scene, this should be an indication that something might be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Ha ha!
     
  16. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Yeah. She is pretty bad. There's so many things wrong with how her character was built, I don't know where to begin with my deconstruction. Funny thing is, if they added 10 minutes of extra dialogue, they would have resolved some (not all) of her issues with the character.
     
  17. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Those two posters go hand in hand. Do you know any person who is perfect? Yes, I'm even talking about the love of your life. About your family members. About your friends.

    No one, ever, is perfect. Why would your character be? Think of this character as a person with history. Which experiences has he/she made? Where have they run into walls? Which things were easy for them? Prior to your story start. Get to know them as persons.

    I'm certainly not glorifying any character of mine, and I've a hard time even understanding the concept. Yes, I'm writing them, but I see how they are as a whole. I can cheer them on, I can be pissed at, or hurt for them when they make the wrong choices for reasons of stupid pride, pig-headedness, impulsiveness or cowardice. But they'll still be my 'friends'; like I am friends with my 'real friends' in person. They aren't perfect either.
     
  18. Carly Berg

    Carly Berg Active Member

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    It might be fun to write a Mary Sue main character deliberately. Her perfectness could actually be her big flaw and bring about her downfall, if everyone hates her for it and treats her accordingly. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I suppose that could be fun. However, one of the usual characteristics of a Mary Sue is that all the good people in the story love her/him. It's only the baddies who don't.
     
  20. EstherMayRose

    EstherMayRose Gay Souffle Contributor

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    LOL. I've got plans for a fanfic where a Mary-Sue enters the show's universe and, guided by her thirteen-year-old author, essentially mind-controls the characters so that they essentially worship her, acting massively out of character to do so. She falls when her author grows up a bit, realises what a piece of crap she's writing, and deletes the story.
     
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  21. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

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    Yes yes yes! I think most of the time, a Mary Sue problem doesn't originate in the character per se; it happens when the people around them and the situations they're put in don't match up. If your MC is very competent and very likeable, that's fine, but the obstacles they face need to become that much more difficult. If you write a character with god-like powers, there'd better be even stronger god-like antagonists for them to face. The problem arises when you pit a perfect hero against a flawed villain. The challenge doesn't feel real; it's like we're supposed to root for the hero just because the author said so.

    And definitely have them make mistakes. It's so boring when a character does everything right.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Rockford Files, Lance White

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0688097/
     
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  23. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Mary Sues don't have conflict. All they have is obstacles that haven't fallen before them YET. (Because they haven't gotten that far, but they will before the credits roll.)

    It should be one step forward, two steps back, all the way to end of the story. Then your character can't be perfect, because they're being beaten right up to the turnaround when everything comes together and they strike like a thunderbolt. So come up with conflicts that triumph over the character, at least partially/mostly.

    Of course, making the character interesting is another issue. That's the flaws and quirks and depth. Those help with setbacks too.
     
  24. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Eh, there are weak points in her characterization, but I don't think Rey quite meets the bar of Mary Sue. She makes mistakes, encounters conflict, and has flaws, despite her abilities. If we broaden the definition of Mary Sue to include her, we also include Luke, Anakin, and a whole lot of other pop culture icons.

    The character issues with Rey could be solved by tweaking a few scenes (the novelization for TFA did this, for example). Mary Sue's issues run much deeper.
     
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  25. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    She's a Mah-Rey Sue, through and through.

    Failing one time to use Jedi mind-control, which she really shouldn't have known even existed, doesn't let her off the hook.

    Luke and Anakin aren't in a whole different league than Mah-Rey Sue, you're right. They're in a whole different ball game.
     

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