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  1. The Broken Soul Project

    The Broken Soul Project Active Member

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    Audience Vs. Critics (Writing what you want vs what others enjoy)

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by The Broken Soul Project, Jan 14, 2018.

    Recently I've been really frustrated with my writing process and the sort of criticism i've recieved. Not saying the criticism isn't warranted, because it totally is, and I honestly agree with it. It's the sort of.... criticism on the message I'm trying to deliver. That of politics, the state the world is in today. The sort of story I was trying to deliver that examines our ideas as humans and puts them to the test. And a guy told me "it's not going to sell because politics dates things." talked to my father and he gave me some honest advice. "The way I see it there are two types of movies you can make. Personal projects(Blade runner, Arrival) or things that please an audience (Fast and furious most marvel films) what do you want to do with it."
    I think we as writers take criticism a bit too seriously to the point we lose our own style. We want to please others more than creating something that we ourselves will enjoy for years to come. Don't lose your identity, write what you want to write.
     
  2. Jupie

    Jupie Senior Member

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    The way I see it, there's a lot of people out there in the world. There are some who are bound to enjoy the same things as you do, so there's no reason why they wouldn't be interested in your novel. The difference is knowing when it is ready for publication. We have to remember when writing that we will stick with the process because it's our project, but a reader doesn't have the same investment. They've got lives to lead, so they won't want to read something that isn't very good. That's why we have to really hone our craft and go through countless of revisions before knowing it's ready for the world.

    I think it's a mistake to write something just because it's popular. I also think you shouldn't be a people-pleaser. Speaking for myself only, I write because I seem to really enjoy it, and can quite easily wile away the hours just typing away at a manuscript. One day, I'd love to have readers who really enjoy the story I have written. Being able to share something you've done is a wonderful thing and once someone else reads it, it becomes theirs. They will take from the story what they will. I can't really write for an audience, because I don't know what they would want. But I can write something that I think is interesting and relatable.

    So long as it's not just a quick way to make money, and you really are passionate about the project, people won't care if you wrote it for yourself or others. Truth is, it can be both.
     
  3. The Broken Soul Project

    The Broken Soul Project Active Member

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    Oh i agree. That's why i'm not like slamming the critics against my novel. I completely understand my novel isn't ready to be published, as I see the flaws of my writing and what I need to work on. That part is necessary, and I think without that we would never improve our craft.
     
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  4. Jupie

    Jupie Senior Member

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    That said, the critics aren't always right about everything. They usually have a good sense of competency and can objectively tear down your novel with forensic scrutiny but they might not fully appreciate your ability or potential. They might not feel what you've written because they're too busy rejecting dozens of manuscripts a day. It's like those people who give advice about writing CV's or resumes. They give good advice on one hand, but they're also only looking to tick boxes and streamlining the process. That's not true of all critics, but it's fair to say that they may be looking for trigger points or not digging far into your work to try and understand your vision. That's not their job, of course, but sometimes the best feedback comes from the beta readers and people willing to examine your work and intentions with a little more patience. They're on your side to an extent.

    I think being your own critic and always seeking to improve is a good thing, so long as you don't go too much the other way. It's good to praise yourself for the stage you're at now, even for picking up the pen. Whenever I read advice from writers they very often tend to prescribe a list of 'musts' in your writing that if you don't follow you will fail. The truth is a lot more grey and people become good writers for all sorts of reasons. The best ones are I think people who don't so much play the instrument but become the instrument. That sounds a bit silly, but it's a bit like an opera singer who may be technically brilliant but lack the passion or feeling that a less perfect but deeply soulful / spirited singer may have. Yes, they make mistakes, but they also have this wonderful creativity and gift that is just natural and hits you where it matters even if it doesn't hit the right note every time.

    I've started to waffle now but yeah, it's good to be professional and get your writing to a high standard but the true essence in books comes from the author's love for what they're doing. Without that dedication and enthusiasm, the book will just feel hollow in the end.

    Let the critics give you constructive feedback, but give yourself credit where it's due as well :)
     
  5. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    I don't know what your novel is about, but speaking off-the-cuff, it isn't very good criticism if they're just disagreeing with your political message, or the act of expressing a political message. That sounds more like an opinion.

    If you write about politics correctly, it doesn't make your work dated. You just really need to get to the psychological and philosophical roots of a problem so that you transcend the party names and make it timeless.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  6. DITF Ninja

    DITF Ninja Member

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    So from my take on all of this I can offer a few things. First is this, the best way I feel to address a controversial topic (IE politics) is only by drawing the problem out from a very neutral, noncommital standpoint. The reason I say this is because people never enjoy being told how to look at a problem but rather enjoy thinking of their own answer itself. If you can start at a place of common ground and slowly chip away at ideals people use as justification (IE using religion to justify a ban on gay marrage) and do this one chip at a time before the reader knows it they are standing there with a cause but no idea why they hold that cause. Then just let them figure out their own answer.
    Secondly I would start off MILD as hell and don't be afraid to miss a couple opportunities to hammer home the message or else you can drive people away for being too preachy (kind of how the Left Behind series got half way through book 4). Also it might not be a bad idea to point out when your views can be wrong because hey we are people and we are capable of failure.
    Lastly make it an experience that will leave them thinking after every chapter. So instead of cliffhangers rooted in action make them ones rooted in thought.
    Just my three cents.
     
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  7. Julie Covey

    Julie Covey New Member

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    Personally, I wouldn't be making ANY movies in Hollywood. Because, look, I'm not going to hide the fact that I voted for Trump. And they throw people under the bus for that. Not only THAT, they go so far as to WISH DEATH ON A SITTING PRESIDENT. Johnny Depp--"When was the last time an actor assassinated a president?" Madonna--"I have thought a lot about blowing up the White House." Cathy Griffin--Posts a picture of herself holding the bloody, decapitated head of Trump.

    Having a political opinion isn't the same thing as making veiled terroristic threats.

    serveimage.jpg

    So no, no Hollywood for me, thank you. Not that I hate all Liberals. I don't. Hell, my mom's a Lib and we get along great. But I don't appreciate it when celebrities say and do these kinds of things. And I don't think it's right when Trump voters in Hollywood are forced to stay in the closet because they know they'll lose their careers if they speak openly about their political beliefs. Talk about discrimination. THAT is what's going on over there. Even James Woods will tell you that.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Maybe you could work with James Woods.
     
  9. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Without getting too carried away and turning this into the President Trump 2.0 thread, half the spectrum of discourse has been labeled off-limits, and good luck getting any kind of spot in Hollywood or contract from a publisher if you answer 4 instead of 5.

    But if you truly believe in something, you won't let censorship stop you. That's why I said @The Broken Soul Project that, regardless of what his political opinions are, he'll be fine if he gets to the philosophical and psychological roots of the problems in his fiction.

    Or you can always try satire. Write it well enough and the publisher won't realize until it's too late and already sold (hopefully) a lot of copies.
     
  10. Jupie

    Jupie Senior Member

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    Like all things, I could get on with any individual if they show themselves to be fair in their views and opinions. I've not come across many Trump supporters, but it's good to stand by what you believe. Personally, while I don't think celebrities should generally get too involved in politics, I had read what Depp said before and found it funny. Fair enough if you didn't, but dark humour isn't the same as genuinely meaning what you say on a literal level. I don't know his mind, but I doubt he wanted it to be taken as anything other than humour (and humour is a great way to get your anger across). The thing is, a man like Trump really gets under many people's skin, and he knows it. Also, with respect, he's very on the knuckle with his own comments too.

    The whole bloody head thing was different. I found that kinda weird. It's a visceral message and controversial. But the dark humour stuff I support, it helps people to deal with a man they not only professionally dislike but also personally too.
     
  11. itsmickib

    itsmickib Member

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    I've been feeling the same way recently, so much so that I've lost a bit of motivation for writing my W. I. P. I like my story, actually. I would read it if someone else had written it. But I can't imagine the people around me reading It. Our tastes are so different. I know it's ridiculous... there are so many other people who would enjoy my book. But I just feel like... I should be working on West Indian literature or something. Not some European fantasy stuff.
     
  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Are you writing movies? Because I find it best for writers to think about works similar to theirs and there is always something similar. And a good enough writers with an insane amount of persistence can totally make it, but you need to know the market you're aiming for little. At least, it helps I think. It sounds like you are letting other people tell you what will set or the difference between highbrow and lowbrow without checking out for yourself how things work and what's out there. Sometimes dating things or being right on top of a current event can be very good for a writer.
     
  13. Julie Covey

    Julie Covey New Member

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    Uh, no. He's done with Hollywood and is happily residing in the land of Twitter, shooting down liberals in rapid succession, like R. Lee Ermey with a machine gun.

    VERY GOOD POINT. The Meryl Streeps of the world might own Hollywood, but they sure as shit can't stop anyone from writing a good--or bad--story. They may never accept or acknowledge said story, but so what? What does that matter? In the end, it doesn't.

    Honestly, if I ever submit something for publication I'll do my best to keep politics out of the mix. I'll never lie and say I'm something I'm not, but there is a way to be professional and not let political opinions get in the way of your success as a writer.

    Anyway, I apologize for going off-topic. It wasn't my intention to hi-jack this thread. I just couldn't NOT address the issue of Hollywood and politics. By the way, as far as the industry itself is concerned I think Richard Marx got it right with this song.

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    He doesn't seem all that done...

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000249/
     
  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I would advise you (if you're writing fiction) to dig deeply into WHY you hold the political views you do. What made you think these views are right? Something must have made sense to you at some point.

    If you can tap into that underlying reason, you can make it come alive for other people. Politics isn't really a problem for writers. Preaching is. If you can make your readers 'get' the reason you hold the political views you do, then you not only will have written a successful novel, but you might have (sneakily) made a few converts as well.

    Don't focus on the politics itself. In fact, don't even mention it. Focus on the problem your politics is designed to solve. Focus on what initially made you believe the politics are correct. What needed or needs to change? Focus on that.

    Just a crude example: if you believe that taking care of disabled workers to a decent standard is society's responsibility, then give us a disabled worker as your main character. Maybe show how this worker became disabled, if the disability is new—and how this has impacted their ability to continue to earn a living. Or if the disability is lifelong, maybe show how difficult it is for that person to gain employment in the first place. And maybe how easy it is for them to lose their job. If they don't have a rich family to support them, how do they live? If we become invested in this character's fate, then inserting (or implying) the politics will seem natural and 'right.'
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  16. The Broken Soul Project

    The Broken Soul Project Active Member

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    Ive been away for about a week and this really blew up.
    A lot of my political beliefs from what ive studied in my college classes. I'm majoring in Social work so a lot of my leanings have become liberal because of the injustice ive found in this world. (Despite the fact we are shown the conservative side of things I never really bought into it unless it was to keep people from taking advantage of the system). Putting my novels setting in a place similar to American society or hell even some third world countries and theocracys where.... if you arent white christian(muslim in other countries but same rule applies) or male.... you are outcast in some ways , is commentary on how... we cant accept one anothers differences and is a big talking point for me. Economics is different, I dont plan on writing something on socialism cause even the main character admits he cant really lead, only inspire others. A lot of my frustration stemmed from a.... person who wanted to convince me to change a character on the basis of transphobia. And this persons questioning of what is considered abuse. (Essentially saying this kid in my story was only going through a phase in his life and would eventually change back female.).
    Its tiring to say the least. On the subject of the president , i hate for who he aligns himself with in his cabinet... the blatent disrespect towards other cultures, and just general lack of professionalism. I dont hate the voter. Far from it. A lot of people support him just on the economic side of things. I think myself threatening others on the basis of what you believe in is wrong.
     
  17. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    I respectfully disagree with your political opinions except one, which is Muslims in third-world countries. However, I will warn you: write any legitimate criticism about Muslims and you'll have a hard time getting it published, @The Broken Soul Project. And if such a story manages to get into the public limelight, anticipate death threats in your mailbox.
     
  18. ITBA01

    ITBA01 Active Member

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    I think having politics in writing is fine, as long as you can bring something new to the table with your opinion. The problem with most political fiction these days is that they just seem to keep saying the same things over and over again, thinking that they're so clever. This is the problem I had with the Supergirl TV series. It's as if they just decided to just go as far left as you can go(to the point where they let a potentially infected person leave their base because he needs to stop climate change) because "herp derp, Drumpf won't like this". That and the lesbian romance was forced, though I suppose terrible romances are par for the course with the CW shows.
     
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  19. The Broken Soul Project

    The Broken Soul Project Active Member

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    Dude im not criticising muslims. I actually almost converted. Like just... the overly religious government that our country has started taking is fairly similar to those countries. Nowhere near as.... bad.... but its starting to come to that. Its a parallel. Theocracy, is what I have a problem with. Persecution based on not following the norm. Stuff like that. Feel free to disagree with me on my politics, and god knows I know a lot of people disagree with me. But thats all it is an opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  20. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Yeah, I'm not here to debate you. My best advice is to get to the psychological and philosophical roots of these issues. Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  21. Julie Covey

    Julie Covey New Member

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    Well then, I stand corrected.
     
  22. Julie Covey

    Julie Covey New Member

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    Let's go.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    h

    I didn't know writers are now picking their readers. Why would any writer want to limit the reach of their works?
     
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  24. Julie Covey

    Julie Covey New Member

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    Sorry, I'm thinking about...something I thought about before. Something I was thinking of....BUT WAS PUNISHED FOR.
     
  25. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Well, if you don't try to limit your readers and specify your audience, and attempt to appeal to everybody, your story actually becomes meaningless, castrated garbage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018

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