The art of the story

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by ScaryPen, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    That's one example of a person who got banned. I'm not seeing it as a widespread problem.

    I don't recall ever seeing what you're describing. I see people refusing to compromise on any part of their multiple ideas, even though those ideas don't fit together. I've seen people seem to demand that other people solve that problem for them. I've seen people who seem to fear that even a tiny tweak will shatter the whole creative structure.

    But I've never seen anyone who truly seemed to believe that their plots or characters were not their own creation and not under their control. I think that you may be, again, taking metaphors literally.

    Are you literally saying that people have said, "It's not my fault the characters won't..." or is that your paraphrase of your interpretation of what they're saying? I tried searching the Workshop for "It's not my fault" and failed to find anything, though it's a bit of a struggle to search for a whole phrase. (Anyone know the syntax?)
     
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  2. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    I've had some time to think about it, and I think I actually land somewhere close to what @ChickenFreak and @Shenanigator describe. There was a short fiction I posted here a little while ago that was written with processes similar they've described. Daily Inconveniences. That story started with 3 sentences. I had no idea where the story was going to end up -- I just wrote it. I let the musings take me and wrote with my gut. Once I finished it, I used my head to edit it. On the other side of that, I'm currently writing a story that I have taken great conscious control over, because I know generally what I want the shape of the story to be, and where I want it to end up. Yet I know that while I'm planning it all out, that every detail is subject change by whatever emotional whim might feel "right" in the moment, and I think that's part of the fun, because I never truly lose control. I can always go back edit. I always have conscious control over my story at the end of day, no matter if I let go of that control to get the words on the page in the first place.

    Writing is already such a fickle thing. Far be it from me to deny the validity of another's method of getting shit done when it's the words on the page that count.
     
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  3. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    I often tell myself, it is not the methodology that matters, only results.
     
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  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The latter

    For other examples - I already mentioned he who should not be named (I'm not quoting one of his posts in case it brings him out of hibernation)

    Another example is the thread" Ill baby Scene" where the OP answered pretty much any suggestion she do it differently with "that's how it works for this species" totally overlooking that she was in total control of what works and doesn't work for a fictional species and thus had the ability to change it. (precis - young can talk and explain concepts at 3 months but are still on breast milk.... yeah, umm right)
     
  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But I wouldn't call that a failure to understand that she's in control, I'd call it a refusal to be flexible about what has already been created. That refusal is a problem, but I think you're misdiagnosing the nature of the problem.
     
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  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Yes but the explanation/excuse is still "I can't because thats how it works for that species" Just as with HWSNBN his "thanks but I can't because the plot/characters.." was pretty much an excuse in reality rather than a genuine reason ... hence why i said that I was sick of seeing "I can't because the characters/plot/ whatever ..." used as an excuse for not taking writers responsibility
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm saying that telling people, "But it's all coming out of your imagination! YOU did it!" isn't going to persuade them, because they already know that. It's just going to sound condescending and they're going to stop hearing you.

    I think that telling them, "I realize that you are attached to what you've created so far, and maybe you're afraid that changing it will damage it, but a little more flexibility in changing your creations might solve a lot of problems" is closer to addressing the issue.

    Doesn't mean anyone will act based on that advice, of course. But it might plant a thought that they could act on later, whereas telling them what they already know, won't.
     
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  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Thanks, but I can't because it doesn't fit with my plot ..... :D
     
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  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @big soft moose I never said anything like those people who you are talking about. I don't understand why you want to take your frustration out on me. Starting this discussion was not about a problem, and certainly not something I expected someone to get on my case about. Now you're saying all this has to do with other posters who aren't even involved in this discussion at the moment.
     
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  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Its a forum - people discuss stuff tangental to the original thread - don't take it personally

    In your case I stand by my original point I trust my story in the same way that I trust my car to drive me to work, or my walking boots to take me up a hill ... ie its entirely under my control and therefore trust doesnt come into it
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I really struggle with the idea of a complex creative work being entirely under my control. Yes, I totally understand that what happens to it is totally a result of my actions, but that's not the same thing. If I fill a bowl with water and then poke it with a finger, the ripples are a result of my action, but they're absolutely not under my control.
     
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  12. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Well they are - because you can take the bowl and pour it away, you can make another ripple, you could stir a whirl pool into existence - not to mention that the way in which you poke your finger defines which way the ripples go... the ripples have no autonony and what happens to them next is entirely under your control.

    Same with writing a book - you can write it well, you can write it badly, you can change the plot, insert new characters, file the whole thing in a drawer sand forget it, or whatever..... the only things not totally in your gift are

    a) your native writing ability (and you can still learn to be better if you wish) and

    b) whether readers/publishers buy it if you get that far

    (with the obvious proviso that you are not cowriting etc)

    TBH to turn your remark round I struggle with how a creative endeavour can not be entirely under the control of the person creating
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It's really not. If I decide, say, that I want a ripple to go X millimeters per minute and strike the edge of the bowl in precisely 6.2 seconds, that's not within my control, at least at my current level of knowledge and skill, and possibly not ever.

    I have absolute control over what my characters do. I don't have absolute control over whether what they do makes sense, whether it sounds good, whether it has the emotional impact that I desire. I don't have absolute control over whether my mind conjures up the ideas and concepts that will make my fiction good and with the emotional impact that I desire.

    I can't command my brain, "COME UP WITH SOMETHING GOOD--NOW!" I have to persuade it. I'm not in control to nearly the extent that you think.
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I think we are going to have to agree to differ , because our writing approaches are clearly very different - I cannot command my brain to come up with a good idea this instant either

    I would say a writer does have control over whether the work he or she puts out is good with the impact they desire because they have the ultimate control ... ie that they don't have to choose to put it out until it has that impact.

    No one does it in one step, but by the time they drafted, redrafted, edited deleted etc it is within their gift to achieve what they wanted, or bin the work if they are still dissatisfied

    I mentioned earlier that I also turn and carve .... I don't have control over whether accidents occur, a tool slips, the wood has a hidden flaw or whatever, but I do have control on whether those pieces go in the firewood basket or on the mantle above it

    In short control over the output of process isn't the same as control over every second of the process.
     
  15. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Thank you. That's a much clearer way of putting it. Here's my take.

    The more complex the idea is that you start out with, if you're not working with a plan, you may find it difficult to stay true to your original idea (except for blind faith) when all those potential character nuances and plot opportunities emerge. Which ones to pursue? Which ones to ignore? This is NOT to say you need an outline. I've posted elsewhere (and often) about the perils of staying bound to a detailed outline. But for myself, I find that having a sense of who my mc is, where (s)he is trying to go and why, and some (no more than, say, tw0) ideas of where (s)he will end up, that gives me all the faith I need that I'll be able to stay true to the idea. And because of that, it's not a matter of blind faith.
     
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  16. Vacuole

    Vacuole Member

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    Keeping with this analogy, while it's true that you operate the car, you probably aren't thinking or focusing on every single piston that is moving, or spark that is plugging (forgive me, I don't know how cars work); you leave the engine to do its own thing and work properly, just like you trust that your cardiovascular system will circulate the right amount of blood and nutrients to keep your body functioning. You (that is, the "you" that exists looking out behind your eyes) don't focus on these specificities, and yet they do their job just fine.

    Fiction writing (for me) works the same way. I don't try to control or jerk around the creative process too much, other than showing up every day ready to use it; I trust that my car will drive, even if I have little-to-no knowledge of how the internal machine works. If I focused on the internal machinery every time I sat down and wrote, driving my figurative car, I don't think I'd have much time to enjoy the view.
     
  17. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Just a thought...since @deadrats has already said that he was not suggesting that he felt his writing was not completely under his control, doesn't that mean that this part of the discussion is now irrelevant? Not in the overall scheme of things, but certainly to this thread.

    His concern about trusting in the idea of your story - which implies questions about how one does that when not following a strict outline - is really a fundamental one. @ChickenFreak asked early on if this was really another pantser/planner argument, but I think it's really the other way around - pantser/planner arguments revolve around this fundamental notion of trusting the idea. Planning is one way to cope - if I stick to a rigid plan, I can trust that I won't stray from the initial idea, but if I just write-where-the-story-takes-me, I could possibly drown in the sea of possibilities that my characters and plots open up for me. In the film "Rewrite", about an out-of-work screenwriter who takes a job teaching creative writing in order to give himself two nickels to rub together, the mc, Keith Michaels (Hugh Grant) is asking each of his students what their story is about and why they want to write it. Paraphrasing: "You need to understand what that is, and when you're at sea in the middle of your third act and you're drowning, you hold on to it with all your might."
     
  18. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    ... That is a fascinating observation :)

    I love editing, and I do a lot of editing on the go before I've finished my first draft. The standard byline is that editing is miserable, and the standard paradigm is to bash out the first draft as fast as possible and save any editing for later.

    How many more people would enjoy editing if they started sooner?
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I enjoy editing and I start editing immediately. :) That is, every scene gets heavily edited when it's written.
     
  20. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Inasmuch as I have a "history," it's coming from flash fiction, where it seems (to me at least) that all one does is edit. Edit for content, edit for length, edit for clarity, edit for length, edit for impact, edit for length, and so it goes. That's left me trying to retrain myself to write out a whole paragraph, page, or scene without going back to change anything, even if it's pretty obvious it's wrong. Of course, when you're dealing with a thousand, or 666, or 500 words or whatever, you'd better have a pretty clear idea of where you're going in the first place, but I find I don't mind editing that much.
     
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  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    There was a time when i would have said "yes, trust in your writing and your ideas and just be yourself," but now I'm not so sure. Maybe (I'm still not so published, so what do I know) it's wiser to remain fluid--after all, if you want to traditionally publish, someone else is going to decide what gets out there and what doesn't, and then of course there's supposedly editing.

    Obviously when you're pitching your stuff you have to believe that it is completely polished and that it is good, but I think, for me at least, I'm starting to view my written and in progress works as concepts more than perfect masterpieces. Some concepts might be easier to pitch than others, some might be easier to adapt to different markets. Nothing is really final until it's printed.
     
  22. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Yes, of course. We agree there. I think where we disagree is whether or not it's possible for every writer to make that state of imagination happen every single time one sits down to write, which is what you seem to imply. I write every day, and have for decades, but my odds of getting into that state of flow or whatever we like to call it while writing fiction are still less than 50%. With fiction the harder I "try" to get words on the page, the worse my writing is.

    From Post #137 on this page about how I write dialogue:
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/shenanigators-progress-journal.154441/page-6

    "I see the characters speaking in the scene, like a movie in my head, and I transcribe their words like a court reporter. The movie in my head is usually sped up, sometimes triple-time, so I always have to type really fast to keep up. (If you were listening at the door, you'd even hear me say things like, "Wait! Slow down! I didn't get that!") This part of the process never feels like I'm the one doing the writing. Then the movie stops playing, and I feel more awake and present.

    Then I go back and write the basics of where the characters are and what the characters were doing when they said it. (Only at this point does it start to feel like it's me doing the writing.)..."

    I wish I could conjure that movie every damn time I sit down to write, but for me, it just doesn't work that way. If you don't happen to need the movie in your head to produce decent fiction, then kudos to you. I do.

    But that doesn't make my brain's process wrong or yours wrong. I would never expect someone else to be able to memorize entire chapters of books and thumb through them and read the text off the page in their head like I did in college instead of taking notes, much less call them lazy if they couldn't do it.

    Non-fiction writing, I can force more. For the most part, I know I can sit down and write and eventually have something on the page every time. The quality varies, but I do know I can complete a workable article that's "OK" at worst.

    Editing also can be more forced and doesn't require that sort of alpha state thing. That we can agree on. ETA: To use your carving metaphor, for fiction, I carve and turn during the editing process. But the wood I'm carving comes from that alpha state stuff.

    But your photography analogy? Not the same thought process at all, for me. Black and white film photography is a serious hobby of mine, and my process for that couldn't be more different than writing. Your mileage may vary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  23. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Thank you. You explained it perfectly: gut or subconscious for the first part, head / conscious for the editing. (And I cannot spell either of those words today.)
     
  24. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    Do you know of any writers who constantly transform their work and can never reuse what they’ve already written? They start over their manuscript with a fresh mind as many times as they need to?

    I’m constantly torn between being efficient and having fun while writing because I don’t want to waste what I’ve already written, which ironically is slowing me down trying to merger the older text with the new.

    Does anyone feel the same way?
     
  25. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    Do you want to write faster and be mor efficient? Or are you writing purely for your own amusement?

    It’s okay to be how you are and do what you like.

    But if it’s bothering you and you feel like you’re wasting time... you could just start a new story instead of transforming the old one. If the story is so radically different that you’re not reusing any old material, then just start a new story and leave the old one alone.
     

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