1. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    An / a

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by OurJud, May 6, 2018.

    I know the rule has something to do with whether the following words starts with a vowel or consonant, but what if the sentence is something like:

    And to finish the night, an 'in his prime' Glen Campbell concert on BBC Four to unwind to.

    Without the 'in his prime' it would be 'a Glen Campbell concert...' but am I correct to use 'an' because of the line between quotes which follows it? (I'm sure there's a name for what I did here, but I don't know what it is).
     
  2. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Yeah, 'an' is correct. It's whatever sound follows the a/an -- so in cases where there's a silent H followed by a vowel, for instance, you use 'an' even though there's technically a consonant. You've got a vowel, so you use 'an'.
     
  3. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Another one that always trips me up about this rule is when the an/a comes before an acronym.

    So something like “That person has a/an MFA.”

    Do you go by the sound the letter makes when you say the acronym as letters? Or is it just written short hand and you should treat it as if it says “masters?”

    Don’t mean to hijack, but this seems like a good place to ask, haha.
     
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  4. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    No, it's a good question and one that gets me, too, now that you mention it.
     
  5. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    It's the pronunciation, which may change from one abbreviation to another even if they start with the same letter. Some are pronounced as words (initialisms), while some are spelled out (acronyms).

    So it's: an HBO special. (aych-bee-oh starts with a vowel sound)
    And: a HUD display. (Pronounced "hud," as in: Hudson Hawk is a terrible movie.)

    So yours is an MFA. (em-eff-ay starts with a vowel sound)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  6. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    While we're on this thread, I might comment that the a/an rules also apply to thy/thine and my/mine (when used as an article). Hence:

    Modern:

    "He ate my apple." "Was that your apple?" "Yes, it was mine, not yours."

    Early modern:

    "He ate mine apple." "Was that thine apple?" "Yes, it was mine, not thine."
    "He ate my pear." "Was that thy pear?" "Yes, it was mine, not thine.""

    Note that in each of these three constructions, the third sentence uses "mine" and "thine" (or "yours") as nouns, not articles.

    A lot of people who are trying for Shakespearean-style English trip up on this. I see it on more signage at "Ye Olde Gifte Shoppe" than I care to recall.
     
  7. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I'm being very thick today.

    What relevance does thy/thine and my/mine have with a/an ?
     
  8. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    It's an archaic parallel.

    That is thy vodka.
    That is thine absinthe.

    Still based on vowel sound of the first syllable.

    Edit: "Mine" is being used in a really old sense too, not like we do nowadays. That makes it seem trickier than it is.
     
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  9. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Ah! Thanks. I'm only happy those terms are now obsolete. Grammar is confusing enough already.
     
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  10. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    Fun fact! "Apron" used to be "Napron", but lost the N due to it "A napron/My napron/thy napron" being heard as "An apron/mine apron/thine apron." A similar thing gave us the first N in "nickname".
     
  11. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    However, the one that bugs me -

    during Strictly Come Dancing Tossers

    Drumroll

    'The next couple evicted tonight is... ...'
    ...

    That's more important than Glen Miller.
     
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  12. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Ja, but morally it’s wrong.
     
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  13. soupcannon

    soupcannon Active Member

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    At the risk of triggering the diehardest of grammar fanatics: a/an historic...

    I have my own preference, but I'm curious who uses what for the 'hard' H sound.
     
  14. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    'a', surely?

    "Look, he's got a hat on."

    I can't imagine anyone saying, "Look, he's got an hat on."

    Or have I misunderstood what it is you're asking?
     
  15. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/22/comment.comment

    This kind of cleared it up for me.
     
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  16. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    There's a special place in hell for those who pronounce the H but insist on "an historic".
     
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  17. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    Which raises a question: Besides "historic," there are other words that begin with an "H" letter but a vowel sound (for instance, "honor" and "honorable" and the like), but AFAIK they have never been pronounced the the "H" as a consonant, like "historic" sometimes is. Are there any "h" words that have both a vowel and a consonant "H" as common pronunciations?

    I can't think of any off-hand, except for borrowings from other languages like "hombre."
     
  18. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    And I think that "orange" started out as "naranja."
     
  19. soupcannon

    soupcannon Active Member

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    Now you've got me thinking of that Peanuts strip where I think it was Sally writing a letter with the lines "Dear sir, You are a nidiot. You are also an ucklehead."

    Edited to add: Found it!
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Herb.

    British people call those green things you keep in your spice rack herbs, pronouncing the H. Here in America, We call ‘em erbs, without the H sound. Is one way more correct than the other? Well, no. Different pronunciations happen within different dialects of one language. But, how we got to our different pronunciations is pretty interesting.

    The word herb began being used in the 1300s. It came from the Old French word erbe, which came from the Latin word, herba. When herb came into being, Latin had lost its H sound, and it also was not pronounced in French. So, originally, herb didn’t have the H sound. (Point one, Americans.)

    Move ahead to the nineteenth century. Britons decided to go with a technique called “spelling pronunciation,” which means they pronounce the H in herbs because, as Eddie Izzard explains, “there’s a fucking H in it.” (Point one, Brits.)

    According to The American Heritage Dictionary’s usage note on herb, this means British people also pronounce these related words with an H: herbaceous, herbal, herbicide, and herbivore. However, this is not the same for Americans. We pronounce herb and herbal without the H sound; but, we pronounce herbaceous, herbicide, and herbivore with the H. Even stranger, we pronounce the male name Herb with the H.
    So, if we were to pronounce herb as history had it originally, the American pronunciation would be on target. Yet, at least the British people are consistent with their hard H pronunciations. Bully for them.

    https://grammarpartyblog.com/2013/01/04/erbs-and-herbs/
     
  21. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    A friend of mine used to play the oud, a Middle Eastern stringed instrument much like the European lute (and, indeed, the ancestor of the lute). She had to be careful about describing herself; she couldn't say she was "an oudist" without people getting the wrong idea.
     
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  22. WaffleWhale

    WaffleWhale Active Member

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    It's

    It's the sound, not the letter. When you say "MFA" you pronounce it Em-Eff-Aye. The starting sound is em, which makes a vowel sound. Therefore, "an MFA"

    Sidenote, what's an MFA?
     
  23. irite

    irite Member

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    Master of Fine Arts when saying he has an MFA...

    If it is "at" or "with" the/an MFA it could be Museum of Fine Arts or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Malta Football Assosiaction, bowling alley or carpet shop. I still read ETA as Elvis Tribute Act
     
  24. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    ETA:

     
  25. irite

    irite Member

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    Pretty much what my head shows me every time someone puts an ETA on a post. I chuckle at some random things or reply to my altered version of what was said... In face to face situations people think I'm more than a bit odd.

    If you haven't seen it, check the wonky dictionary thread, they are the sort of altered meanings I apply.
     

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