So, I'm feeling kind of down. It's been almost three weeks since I gave my manuscript out to betas (friends). I don't think they really care at this point. One will not text me, so I have no idea if she's even still reading it. Another one, last I heard, which was a few days ago, was halfway through chapter one. The other one is on chapter 15 last I heard but she's going to be leaving in a few days and I suspect that that'll be it for her reading it, as she won't have a computer or phone (for weeks). I sent this out to them so I could get opinions on the manuscript, take those opinions, and better it so I can go to a professional editor. I know it isn't perfect, but I think it's good enough to send out to a beta. I'm not really getting any feedback, and I expect that I won't since it seems that none of them care or will be able to finish it. I don't know what to do. Do I wait and give them a month? (I know it may take a month or more for them to read it, but based on where they are/circumstances, I think it'll take a very long time if they ever even finish it) Do I just start working through it again and see what problems I can see after not looking at it for almost three weeks? Do I just skip betas all together? On a more personal note, I think this is the only time I'll give any manuscripts to friends, if I ever have another one. I decided to for this one because these are all people who know how much this manuscript means to me and how proud I am of it. (I talked about it all the time at school) It hurts that they appear to not care all that much. I don't want to be upset at them anymore, because I am right now. I know I shouldn't be, but I am. And then, I told my boyfriend about this whole thing (he's not a beta, I wanted him to be but he didn't want to). He said that I should take into account that everyone is busy with jobs and whatever but me, and proceeded to tell me that I NEED to get a job. (EDIT: I'm 18, I just graduated about a week ago, and I'm going to college in the fall. Didn't want you guys to think I'm lazy or something. I will get a job if I'm ready this summer.) I don't know, what do you guys think I should do?
Honestly, I would never trust friends with my manuscript, it puts them in an awkward position not to mention gives them a bit of insight into you. Even though my co-workers known I like to write, i'd never have them read it either. I one time gave my Brother-In-Law a copy of one of my books in a CD, but he never read it and misplaced the disk. Which I guess it's fine. But I intend to use a Pin name in this regards, and then offhandedly recommend the book. Na just kidding, I would feel uncomfortable knowing they read my book. (I know it seems odd, but yup) You could try for a beta here, on WF, or another writing forum, I am still a long way from finishing mine, but when I ask for a beta there will be some requirements to check off for the beta, I.E. they like the Genre, have no POV preference, etc. I want to correct Beta to read my book. Having your BF reading it is a bad idea, and I"m glad he refused. again, puts him in an awkward position. You could try to keep pestering them, but more likely than not they are done reading, not because they disliked it, but it may not be their genre or type of novel. (IF it is, then WTF, ) also if they do give critique, I have learned from another thread to be weary of what they say like. "I enjoyed the book" and then nothing else. or "OH, I liked this," and nothing more.
I know it's hard, but don't take it personally. This happens to a lot of us, and it seems to be a lesson you have to learn the hard way: don't rely solely on friends and family as beta readers. They ask to read your book with the best of intentions, but I think they aren't really aware of the demands of reading an unpublished manuscript. It's not like just sitting down with a book for fun. So, a lot of it could come down to procrastination. Some of it could also be that your draft isn't as engaging as you hoped. That one's a fixable problem, so don't despair, but you do want to look for dedicated beta readers who won't peace out because they're afraid of hurting your feelings. Your friends almost certainly do know how much your book means to you, and that's why they're reluctant to talk to you about it, even if it's just to say, "Sorry, this is more work than I thought it would be." A common way to find beta readers is in writing communities like this one. Usually people like to start out by swapping manuscripts, but sometimes someone will offer to just do a read for you, no swap needed. It can take a lot of time and trial and error to find someone who's right for you. Stick to it! From having followed your posts about this book, I get the impression you're rushing things a bit, which is very common for first-time novelists. Give yourself time. There's no deadline you have to worry about. In fact, lack of deadlines is one of the nicest things about the pre-publication writing life.
I would really like to try to get a beta reader here, or even use the workshop, but I just haven't been able to get over that "what if someone steals it" thought. (Not that I'm saying anyone here would steal it, because I believe you guys are all good people). I was freaking out the night I sent the manuscript to my friends, and I've known them for years. I guess I just have problems trusting people. And I know that it's stupid to worry about, and I know a lot of new writers worry about it when they really shouldn't be, but I just haven't been able to get over it yet.
This is your issue. As much as it sucks, at least in my experience, friends care about us. They do not, however, care about our writing. They want to care, which is why they accept the offer to read, but they're not the people who will give you the feedback you want/need. It's important to cultivate relationships with people predicated on writing if you want to have repeat beta readers, or beta readers who will at least finish the manuscript and get back to you. Likely, the friend you haven't heard from is not really interested in beta reading but told you she would because she's your friend and, probably, she genuinely wanted to read it when she accepted your offer. I have friendly relationships with people who read my work regularly, but they are in a different category than my friend friends. I don't like them any less, but the relationship was predicated on something entirely different, so when you give them something that's so incredibly important to you they want to do you a favor, but beta reading is a chore.
I know exactly how you feel, it's a fear I share as well, actually but it's not even the good Folks on WF but the lurkers, those who don't really participate. But I believe @Steerpike may have some insights that will help put you at ease. Steer can explain it better than I could, and I had my own conversation with Steerpike. (I hope you don't mind me dragging you into this conversation, Steer) . I"m going to be honest, I feel it allows to general of an audience, even if they could be helpful in their critiques, they have their own styles and could impose that on you. I know one of them criticized by 3rd PoV. Personally, I would like to do a close workshop via conversation with a few hand selected users here, have them pick at my story. . I might be more receptive of their critiques. as for beta reader, if it doesn't' require story for story, then maybe someone might, but I would stipulate the Genre, and PoV, so you get the right person to beta it, as some tend to be territorial (and to make it clear, that includes me as well ) Edit: I think you'll start to get confidence here, I am as well. I was alot more introverted at the start.
Hmm, I'm not sure what to tell you then, since it seems like you know what the best course of action is and you're just reluctant to do it. Look at the odds, though: yes, stealing happens, but it's extremely rare. What is far, far more likely to happen is that you get an honest beta reader and are able to move forward with your story. So, do you want to pass up a great opportunity to improve your book and make new writer friends all because of some teeny tiny chance of it all going wrong?
I little saying I have (Or at least I think i'm the originator of it, ) : Talented People do not need to steal from others, because they have their own intellectual properties, not that it doesn't happen but less likely, as Dragon Turtle said, it's extremely rare and if you pay attention to the others here, the majority of us either have their own projects or admit to being more of a reader than a writer. So, you are more likely than not safe with someone on WF.
To add on to @Dragon Turtle, if you’re choosing someone from a forum, take into account the length of membership, and activity. While it doesn’t totally protect you from theft (which is really a non-issue anyway (but I understand why some are fearful of it)), it gives just another indicator that someone 1) maybe knows what they’re talking about and 2) has a reputation. Just feel out the landscape a bit and talk to someone who always says poignant, insightful shit. That’s what I do, anyway.
Also another thing I'd like to add, personally I feel like I have a little group a people on this form I can pretty much trust or depend on to help out and may even ask for a beta read. Of course, that's my own group and you have to come to your own conclusions on who to trust and interact with. Also, to be brutally honest, if it's really sensitive material I would suggest a private group of people here on WF. As opposed to a general population. Private conversations, which I've done! To date, only one person really knows the real names for my place holders for some of the stuff I have written in my journals and what I talk about.
Thanks guys. I'll think on it more. Maybe I can convince myself to get some betas on here. I need to look over the manuscript again, though. After almost three weeks of being away from it, I have some stuff I want to add and look at. I know I need to get over the thought of people stealing it. I want to do whatever will get the book on published in the end. I guess I need to tell myself that about a hundred times.
Sorry about your betas. I know how it feels. Posting in the workshop is a little (okay... A LOT) stressful, but it would be a start if you're fearful of getting your story stolen. One posted scene is but a tiny window into a complete story, so even if someone stole it (which I highly doubt would happen however awesome your writing is), they'd come up with an entirely different story anyway. Each time I have workshopped a scene, I've learned things that have improved not only that scene, but the rest of my novel too, so if you're thinking of revising again, maybe you could try pushing past you fear and posting something in the workshop.
Many people read books either to: a) pass the time; b) take their minds off their tiring/boring/tedious daily routine. They don't spend much thought on what they are reading. Even those who do often just don't know how to give feedback on a manuscript. They have never done it. They honestly don't know what is expected of them. Asking them specific questions rather than just "so, what do you think?" might help. Of course your friends are very reluctant to hurt your feelings. That's why it's advisable to talk with them about it before actually giving them the manuscript. Don't ask them if they would like to read it. Mention it to them and let them ask to see it. If they don't, they're probably not going to be very useful as beta readers anyway. If you send your manuscript to me, I will give you actual feedback. I can't promise I will like it and I can't promise I will read it to the end, but I won't just abandon you. I recently finished beta-reading a novel, so I have enough time to read another manuscript.
This topic comes up quite often on the forum. You give your MS to family and friends and they don't seem to get on with it at all. Yep. This happens. It's not any indication of what these people actually think of you as a person, by the way. Good on your boyfriend for refusing to do it at all. He sees the pitfalls. Remember being assigned to read books in school? Read this book by Friday, write a theme about it due on Tuesday and then take an exam on Wednesday? There will be books you liked and books you hated—and they were all classics that many people think are the best books out there. They've passed many tests already, but you can still hate them, struggle to finish them on time, and be unable to say anything good about them afterwards. As a beta reader who did not volunteer for the job, you're being 'assigned' a book that might not even be well-written—and has certainly not passed the 'I am a classic' test. Yet you must finish the book (ASAP), write your theme and take your exam without offending the writer and actually help them to write better? It's a tall order. Beta reading is HARD. You not only have to plow through a lot of stuff you might not actually enjoy—and the reasons for your non-enjoyment can range from 'it's just not my kind of story at all' to 'your grammar/style is so awkward I can't follow what you're on about'—but then you have to discuss it in a constructive way. Without hurting the writer's feelings, if possible. That's not easy. It's bad enough when you volunteer to be a beta reader. At least you've got some idea (hopefully) what you're letting yourself in for. You may have an idea what the story is about, and it sounds interesting, etc. However, if a person approaches you and says, "I've just written this novel. Will you read it and let me know what you think?" your reaction may well be a heartsink moment. Oh SHIT. Yes, okay. How can I say no? You're my best friend/daughter/girlfriend/favourite student, etc. Shit shit shit. Okay, okay. Omigod. What if I hate the thing? What do I say? How much beta reading have you done yourself? If you're an experienced beta reader (like me), you'll know what I mean. If you're not, well I think that's part of the problem you're experiencing. You need to see the event from the other person's perspective. Try, if you can, to let these friends of yours off the hook. If they get back to you, fine. If they don't, well they just didn't get into the experience. Tell them it's okay to stop trying, so you don't create an elephant in the room, next time you're together with them. Just let them off the hook. They accepted the task because you ARE their friend and they couldn't say no, but it turns out they just can't get into it after all. It's okay. Move on. Move on now. Let everybody know you've written a book. They'll often ask you what it's 'about.' Come up with an interesting answer to that question. Then, if they say 'can I read it?' you're on a better route to success. I have never asked anybody to read my MS, but I've had dozens and dozens of people read it at various stages. All were volunteers. Some were incredibly helpful, giving me suggestions I've incorporated into later versions. Some liked it, some didn't. Some begged me to let them read it, and against my better judgement, I did ...and they never got back to me. Some begged me to let them read it, and against my better judgement I did ...and got some of the most unexpectedly fantastic feedback from them. Some want me to publish NOW. It's all part of the territory. The more people who see your stuff, the better. So throw open the doors, but don't force people to walk through them. Entice them in instead! You tell your beta beforehand that their reaction won't be taken personally, and then you don't take it personally. That's lesson number one. It's a lesson you must learn. Take help when it comes and be grateful for it, but don't put expectations on your betas, or try to emotionally blackmail them if they are close friends or family. Some will surprise you in a good way, others will let you down. It's what happens.
I wouldn't trust the WF crowd. I was eating some crisps while reading the forum at work the other day. Got a call, went to answer it. When i came back half my crisps had gone. Everyone at work denied eating them so it only leaves this bunch of thieving gits!
friends and family will often let you down in these cases. I asked for a dozen of them to read my first book before I published it to give me some feedback. None of them managed it. It hurts to have that kind of rejection come from those you care about. its much better/safer to have that happen with people you don't know and aren't a part of your everyday life. It ends up putting stress on your relationships you don't need.
I think it helps to think past the hurt feelings to why they aren't getting back to you, for either not managing to read it at all, or simply not giving you any feedback. While this won't apply in all cases, I suspect lots of this foot-dragging comes from their unwillingness to hurt your feelings with critique or lack of enthusiasm for what you've created. What you've written might shatter some of their conceptions about you, which makes them uncomfortable. I've got friends whom I know care about me a lot (from all the other things they do for me and our longevity as friends) but they just could NOT get into my story. They were all enthusiastic volunteers of my first draft... please please let me read your story...and that's the last I heard about it from some of them. Others forced a rather lukewarm couple of remarks. Fortunately I had tons of helpful feedback from many others (friends and family and strangers), so I knew my story didn't belong in the bin. Eventually I had to approach the non-responders individually, to tell them it was perfectly fine with me that they just couldn't get into my story. Reading is personal, and there are lots of good stories out there that I don't like myself. They were so relieved that I wasn't mad at them. We are all still friends. NOBODY dropped down in my estimation because they couldn't get into what I'd written. (Especially as it DID need lots and lots of work—not SPAG issues, but all other sorts of storytelling issues which I have since learned about.) My close friends who failed to get back to me were worried they would hurt my feelings. They kept telling themselves they would try again later, etc. It is very very much a mistake to judge somebody's love for you by whether or not they give you feedback on your writing.
I sent my first two books out to several friends. Only three of them ever read them and got back to me. The thing is, I look back on those books now and think they're awful. So I don't at all feel bitter toward the people who never got into them; I feel guilty toward the people who suffered through them.
Oh, I hear you! There are good friends of mine who will not ask to read any subsequent books I write, simply because I dumped my totally amateurish first draft on them. It's another reason why I counsel people NOT to use up all your betas at once. Save some for better versions. Very few people (I mean hardly ANY) are going to want to read the same piece twice. So keep some betas dangling, by telling them you'll be giving them an improved version later on. I must add, however, that I didn't send them stories that were full of SPAG errors. A very occasional typo sneaked in, but in general they were 'error' free. My very first beta, who is an accomplished writer himself, described my effort as 'very clean copy.' That was before he dove in and gave me some of the most amazing feedback I've had, and pointed out so many issues that needed improvement. I had made every OTHER new novelist's writing mistake, I can assure you. I didn't start studying the craft till after I'd finished that first draft. Hoo boy. I'm glad I did it that way, because I wrote honestly and freely—and discovered that I could actually write. I would have felt more uptight if I had been aware of all the pitfalls of storytelling. I don't regret that awkward first draft. What I do regret is handing it out willy-nilly to so many of my friends, whom, I reckon, were expecting better from me.
Asking a friend/family member to read your WIP is a lot like asking them to take a look at you naked and then tell you what they think. It's an uncomfortably personal request. Also, time consuming. That being said, the fact that so many friends will have that heartsinking reaction if you ask them for something like this, I think, shows you the value or lack thereof of friends.
You shouldn't take too much offense at friends and family who don't read or like your stuff. Most people won't even read a book by Stephen King or John Grisham. If you become a successful traditionally published author, what do you sell? Like 5-10k copies? No two people who read a successfully published book will ever even run into one another on the street unless it goes viral. Writing novels isn't exactly like printing hundred dollar bills. Not everyone is going to like it. When I first got interested in writing, I only showed my stuff to people I didn't know well, expecting them not to like it and maybe even blow me off, but a couple of them were really nice and gave me great advice that got me going in the right direction. Now that I have some wonderful beta readers, I really try hard to entertain them. I don't let them see the first draft. I wait for it to get to the third and polish it up, as if they will be the only people who ever read it (which lets be honest, might be true). But working so hard to be entertaining keeps them on my side.
I don't actually agree. The reason is because I have many friends, many from a long way back as well, whom I have stayed with, who have stayed with me, who still exchange gifts with me, who phone me on a regular basis, who get together with me as often as we can (if they live here in Scotland) send me lots of letters, cards and emails (now that many of them are overseas.) And a few of these people were the ones who didn't get back to me about my story, or didn't like it very much. Actually, with only one exception, these non-responders, non-likers were my UK friends, not my American ones ...which tells me that the story itself isn't as appealing to people from the UK as it is to Americans. (It is a historically-set novel, set in the Old West.) It doesn't mean they don't value my friendship. There were a few on both sides of The Pond who did NOT volunteer to read my stuff either, even though they know I've written a novel. Since I didn't ask them to read it, I can only assume they didn't really want to. The only reaction I would take personally is if somebody directly attacked me FOR having written, or were simply insulting. You know. The kinds of remarks like: "I've read cereal packets that were more intriguing than this thing. Forget it. You'll never be a writer." Or "Sorry, but I'm just not interested in reading the crap you probably just produced." Or "I can't be bothered reading your stuff, because you refused to adopt my delinquent teenaged son." Or "Can't you do something useful instead of wasting your life? What good are books?" But ...these people would certainly not be my friends, and hopefully, if they were family, I would have disowned them long ago.
I have to agree with all of this. The betas I sent my current novel to were all either writers of or avid consumers of the genre I write in. They also all had an observed history of offering honest, polite and thorough critique on other's work, so I knew sending it out to them would result in useful feedback. Asking people to beta just because you happen to be related to or a friends with them is asking a lot. It would be like asking them to help you build a deck when they might not be handy, or knit a blanket when they're not crafty. By the way, I have had multiple betas over 8 years of writing (most of whom I have never met in person), and I have never once had a single sentence stolen from me. Authors are much more likely to have their books stolen and bootlegged after publication; it's happened to a bunch of writers I know, including our own @BayView. If you wouldn't stop swimming in the ocean because sometimes sharks attack people, or refuse to get on a plane because sometimes they crash, then you shouldn't deprive yourself of soliciting good beta feedback because you think someone will steal your book. Frankly, it's an insult to the integrity of people who are generous enough with their time and energy to try to help other people's books be the best they can.
