Writers Success

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by sprirj, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I have had a smudge of good news recently. It could be nothing and it's too early to tell anything for sure. Special thanks to those who helped me out this weekend.
     
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  2. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    One of the weirdest things for me about UTK doing so well as a debut was that I was absolutely convinced I just got lucky and would never write anything nearly as good again. It took me a long time to get over that, especially since my second book was not nearly as well received compared to the first one. But my short story in an anthology has gotten some good buzz recently, and I'm convinced based on beta feedback that Gravity can hold it's own against UTK.
     
  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    It's funny, but when I was a lot LOT younger, it was pretty much assumed that if you wrote a book it would get published. It didn't have to be perfect. All it needed to be was finished. It might not sell well, or get popular, but it would pretty much always get published. Even back in the day, when writing was physically a lot harder to do than it is now (no computers, lots of people couldn't type, etc) there were still crappy books out there. But most of them did get published. In fact, I don't know ANY authors from back then who didn't get published.

    Maybe that's why so many people, as soon as they hear you've written a book ask "When is it going to be published?" It's almost a knee-jerk phrase. They don't realise that times have changed. Not taking a writer seriously until they are published is a mistake these days.

    Now, it's a main event if an author gets published at all. Never mind sales or popularity. Just getting published is a rare event.

    It's becoming more and more obvious that quality isn't really the key. Lots of quality books (I've read them as a beta) aren't getting published—or at least not traditionally published. Fortunately self-publishing is becoming easier to do, but there has been a massive shift in the write/publish/sell paradigm. The market for a particular kind of book already has to be there, to be established, before an agent or traditional publisher will take it on. It's the opposite of what used to occur. (Agents took on a story they believed in, sold it to a publisher on the basis of why they liked it, and the publisher created a market for that book if they agreed with the agent.)

    I think it can be a mistake (or at least a downer) for a writer to assume that if they're not published that their stories aren't worthy, or well-written. That doesn't mean a writer shouldn't strive for perfection—or assume perfection—but getting noticed is a much harder thing to do these days. Especially if your writing is excellent, but not groundbreaking. Or it's difficult to grasp. Or challenges mainstream readers in the wrong way. Or it's not a comforting story for mainstream readers or the book's niche readership. Or it's the 'wrong' length ...too short, too long for publishing standards. Or the subject matter isn't currently popular. There are so many barriers to getting published at the moment.

    The First World is still in a state of flux with this issue.

    I predict that, sooner or later, people who are writing simply because they want to make a million and retire early will discover that's not working out. Writing is a lot of work, even if you don't write all that well. So I suspect lots of these people will eventually get discouraged when their efforts get them nowhere, and go find something else to do. Once people in general become more realistic about their chances of becoming a successful writer, I think the crowd pushing at the doors of agents and publishers will thin out. Really dedicated writers will have a better chance of getting noticed. At least that's what I'm hoping will happen.

    So if you are a dedicated writer, just keep writing and keep trying. But don't blame yourself if it doesn't work. If writing is your life, it's your life ...whatever anybody else thinks about it. Validation via publishing is not a given. You get lucky with that, or you don't. Either way, you're producing something worthwhile, that means something to you. And if the wheel turns in your favour at some point, you'll have a body of work all ready to go.
     
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  4. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    How can I be afraid of success, when I will never be successful? :superlaugh:
    At least I didn't fail (completely).
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Self-sabotage is an interesting phenomenon, however. I've seen it happening many times. A person is on the brink of success, they only need to do ONE more thing and they've made it ...and instead, they deliberately go and do something that has the opposite effect. It's very frustrating to watch. It's especially frustrating if you've tried to help them along the way.

    I had a friend here in Scotland (he is dead now) who was an excellent, unique songwriter and a personable and confident performer with lots of local experience under his belt. He was popular locally, and actually ran our local folk club. He just needed to break through and get noticed by the wider world—and he would be on his way. He claimed that was what he wanted more than anything—to get gigs and make a career with his music—and maybe even do some professional recording.

    My husband and I ran the Broadsheet, the Scottish folk magazine at the time, so we had a bit of clout. I managed to wangle my friend a really good gig at a major folk club. He seemed really excited by the prospect ...but then he turned up late to the gig and SAT crosslegged ON THE FLOOR rather than stand or use a chair. He also refused to use a microphone (which he always had used at previous events, no bother) and did the whole gig with his back to the audience. (I wasn't there at the time, or I'd have shaken him till his teeth rattled. But I only got to hear about what he did later on.)

    Of course I got angry feedback from the organisers who had taken me at my word, although they didn't blame me for what happened. But that was the end of my attempts to help my friend get a foot on the ladder. It didn't end our friendship by any means, but it did make me stop trying to help. And I learned a lesson with this. If this kind of thing happens with a person who claims to want success, this is an issue only that person can deal with. Some people really ARE afraid of success—and will do their best to ensure it doesn't happen. Just leave them to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  6. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    lol what do you think causes this?

    If I write 80k words and give it to five people, the feedback will be all over the place...unless there is a line that I particularly like, that I think is cute or clever. All five will flag that one bit as sucking lol
     
  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I temporarily fall in love with most things I write, but when I've really got something good it just feels a little different. Other things... How much do I love then? How long will it last? There are things I work and work and things I revisit. And then that sort of feeling can come too. I am talking about shorter things here. And short fiction is my primary focus.

    The novel is an interesting beast to tame. It's so many of my hours and so much of my life. I don't mean the story is about my life. I'm talking about giving that amount of dedication to writing. While working on my novel I sure feel like I'm giving it all I've got. I don't know if I love it, but I am in a relationship with it. Sometimes it's so stupid I can't even look at it. We've been on a break, but I'm going to go back. I'm not done, and those pages do mean something to me.

    Is taking a break from my novel sabotage? Is procrastination sabotage? Has anyone read this passage? I bet I can find it online and post a link. Let me look for it. I think it will ring true for most people about writing or something else in their lives. If it's not online, it's worth buying the book for alone, though, it is a great book.
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    No, of course taking a break from your novel isn't sabotage. It's sensible to take a break, if you feel you need one. The break will be beneficial if you let the concept cook a while, settle more firmly in your consciousness, and do some subliminal problem-solving. As you say, writing a novel is hard work, and it's NOT finished in a day or two. It's a very different prospect from short-story writing, and starts from a different place. It's not just a long short story, if that makes sense.

    Self sabotage would be things like submitting the novel for publication without actually finishing it, but claiming to the agent that it's done. Or deliberately choosing agents who don't handle the genre you've written, while ignoring the ones who do. Or deliberately choosing not to submit your MS in the format the agent requests, because 'mine is better,' etc. In other words, making damn sure they won't take you on, while still telling the world, 'I'm trying so hard to get published.' That's self-sabotage.

    If you run across somebody doing that sort of thing, there is only one sensible response. Run. Run fast. Don't stop running.
     
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  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Wow talk about a lack of respect!! Why would anyone do that? Did he explain himself? Some people aren't very self-aware, honestly. You just have to look at the X Factor auditions to know - making money off people's voluntary stupidity and getting comedy gold. Ingenious of Simon Cowell really.
     
  10. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    "People learn, early in their lives, what is their reason for being," said the old man, with a certain bitterness. "maybe that's why they give up on it so early, too. But that's the way it is." -- Pablo Coelho, pg 24 in The Alchemist

    Okay here's a link that quickly goes over the reasons we don't reach our dreams. It's not the actual essay, but I can't find a copy of that online. A lot of this just rings really true. I can't suggest the book The Alchemist enough.

    Link to reasons we f*ck up what we really want:
    https://peteandjordan.com/the-alchemist-pursuing-your-personal-legend/
     
  11. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Y'see, I didn't read it like that. I thought this 'everyman' was the hero of the story. As for Cowell, euch...

    HEROES OF THE STAGE 1

     
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  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I forget now what his explanation was, but it was very lame. As I said, he was used to playing in public, and was stunningly entertaining when he was on form. (In fact, that is how I met him.) He was fully aware of what he was doing that night at the gig, and it wasn't a lack of respect for his audience. It was self-sabotage, pure and simple. He was on the brink of success, and instead of taking that step forward, he decided to jump back into the ditch.

    That wasn't the only time he exhibited self-sabotage either. I don't know that he was doing it consciously, but he really did set himself up to fail, many many times, in many different spheres of life. I have no idea why.

    He was an extremely talented short story writer as well, but he frequently tore up his stories and threw them away after he'd let a few people read them. His stories would start out in comedy mode—and he was funny—then they would take a wee unexpected turn and become very poignant. I still remember many of them. He was as good as any writer I ever knew, but just couldn't take that leap into attempting to get published.

    He was one of my best friends here in Scotland for many years, and I still miss him. I just stopped trying to help him get recognition for his talents, and resolved to simply enjoy his company instead. We had so many good times and so many good laughs. There are still things that happen that make me wish I could tell him about. I really miss him. He was a great guy and a great friend. Except to himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  13. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Like I said, voluntary stupidity and comedy gold... and as a Brit myself, I'm... quite embarrassed that this was on national TV and all over the internet. My parents tend to think it's actually the parents' fault for raising the children without any self-awareness and probably never critiquing their performances honestly.
     
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  14. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Sounds a bit like Kafka - wasn't he the same, didn't want anyone to read his stuff and most of it was only published after his death, right?

    I'm sorry to hear your friend was this way. Sounds like he wasted his talents. I'm glad though that you could see past everything and just enjoy him as a friend. Did you ever discuss this self-sabotage tendency with him?
     
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  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    No. I used to ask him why he did specific things, and he always had a reason, however spurious. I just didn't feel qualified to tackle the issue head-on. I still don't really know if there was anything that could have been done. I think he cherished a notion that luck never ran his way ...so he ensured that it never did, or at least not for long. I never understood it, but I recognised it and accepted it. It's hard, because I'm a born fixer, and I always look at an issue from the perspective of wanting to solve it, if it's a problem, or make it work or make it better. I had to learn to back off and allow him to ruin his chances of success. It was hard. It was also a good lesson. People need to fix themselves. Other people can't do that job.
     
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  16. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Sorry to be a 'troll...' but I quite like the girls - and their perspective - it's the same point as the musician sitting on the floor and mumbling into his chin, I can recognise the humanity. Cowell et al. are the monsters of the story, the aberration...writer.
     
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  17. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I get that. Simple squalid terror. It froze me and I could feel me stalling, though pinning down the why took a bit longer. Eventually I found out that I am scared of other's reactions. I don't know if I am more afraid of finding that I do good, or that I don't. Doesn't matter in the end, because I'm not finished with my WIP (or it's not finished with me, depending on viewpoint :D). I've all the time in the world, and so I stopped giving my work out and the block disappeared.
     
  18. Commander Vimes

    Commander Vimes Member

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    Sometimes when I daydream about being a successful author, highly in demand for public appearances, readings etc I think if it ever came to that I'd hire someone to be me, someone who likes that sort of thing, and let them go and have fun. Whilst I get to not have to do that!

    In do think I am somewhat afraid of success in the sense that when I come to finishing a project I often stall or delay. I give myself excuses. The only reason I can think I do this is because of a fear of it actually being good. I'm not too bothered if its bad as I can just put it somewhere out o site and no one will care....but if its good then, well who knows!
     

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