The art of the story

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by ScaryPen, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think any writer never uses what they've written already. How would you ever finish everything? But I do believe most writers, to be successful, have to do a whole lot more rewriting and revision than they would like. It's all about the finished product. There's no race. I'm not a very fast writer, but I do write often. And I do rewrite often. I don't understand the choice between being efficient and enjoying the process. I bet with a little more practice and time you'll find a way to do both.
     
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  2. Agasa R

    Agasa R New Member

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    Me. I kept coming up with new ideas that'll change the entire story. Even now, I'm having issues deciding where the plot is going.
     
  3. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    Did you have a plot in mind when you started?
     
  4. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I can't imagine rewriting without using the old material. I'll write a descriptive paragraph, and yeah, there is a chance the whole scene will get deleted, but the first draft of the description is necessary for me. I look at it and ask what I did wrong. Why are people acting before the scene is set. Is what I'm describing totally visual, or as scene through the eyes of the character? I can't get that stuff right unless I've already dug it out a little and look at what I'm doing.
     
  5. Stammis

    Stammis Banned

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    The first draft is often very bare (though the first chapter is very detailed to get me going) all the details are in my head for now. Then I start over, because I don't want to be tied down to what I've already written. This process I repeat until I have a functioning plot then I start over again and write from the soul, with all the beautiful prose I can think of and when that is done, then begin the editing process. I don't reuse anything before then.

    This is my process and is something I've come to terms with... Hopefully.
     
  6. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Senior Member

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    Thing is, I want to write this story. Really badly. And it's complicated as all hell to write. I'm starting off with two POVs at different points on a timeline (one of them is very nontraditional), and I don't have a real outline. The story *has* to be written like that. I can't imagine it any other way.

    I know I sound like a childish romantic who needs sense slapped into him, but I think I'm writing it because I wanted to explore my story and my setting myself, as if I was the reader. I think about it all the time, but have barely written anything (1,000 words right now). The thing absolutely needs to be perfect - I've rewritten it like three times.

    Did I mention it's my first story? Yep, I made a bad choice. :(

    So I'm stuck in this obsessive, nonproductive rut and need some other project to do so I can get actual experience. Writing prompts don't work on me; I honestly don't want to write when I'm presented with them. How do I redirect my interest into something more reasonable?
     
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  7. GlitterRain7

    GlitterRain7 Galaxy Girl Contributor

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    This won't be helpful if you're more interested in the plot to this story rather than the characters, but can you just put the characters in a different situation, setting them up for a different story? That way you can be sort of working on it (character development, at least) while working on your actual writing.
     
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  8. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Senior Member

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    It's very setting-driven, and the characters are meant to suit that setting. They couldn't just be placed somewhere else.
     
  9. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    Hey Mouthwash! It's not as bad as you think. If the project is too complex for you now, just remember you can always grow into it. I had a similar problem working on a piece, and decided to absolutely drop it and work on something entirely different, but in the same setting--that way it still felt like building up the world.

    Why don't you try telling a completely different story in the same world?! It might even open up new opportunities with the work you have now once you return to it.
     
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  10. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    When you say you've 'rewritten it three times', do you mean you've re-written the same 100o words over again? Or have you actually managed to finish it twice and are on your third rewrite? Cause if it's the former- don't do that. You'll never finish at that rate.

    As for writing practice stuff, have you considered maybe writing bits and pieces from the character's lives that will not be directly part of the story? Maybe some incident from childhood that isn't relevant enough to be included but that'll give you a better feel for the character/setting.

    Another suggestion would be to let go of the idea of 'perfection'. It's never gonna be 'perfect', you'll always find something wrong. Get it to 'good enough', it's a lot of an easier goal to reach.
     
  11. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    This jumps out at me as a big part of your issue with moving forward. I’m not one of those people who puts characters in different places when I get stuck. I push forward on the project knowing that I’ll likely revise the thing into oblivion no matter how perfect I think it might on the first full draft.

    I used to hate the idea of revision because I wanted it to be ready to go the second I finished writing it(!), but that’s not the case, especially if this is your first story. Once I came to terms with the idea that revision is a necessary part of the process, it became easier to leave my hang ups about making sure each sentence was perfect before moving on. Things change. Stories evolve. Allow yourself to get some words on the page knowing that revision, for a lot of people, is where the story gets good, where it gets vigor.
     
  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You're 1,000 words in and it's too hard and you want to quit and you want to to be perfect. It doesn't sound like you're giving this story and yourself a real chance. And you don't even have enough down on the page to really know much about the way you're writing and if it's working. Writing is not easy and it's not going to get easy. It's always going to be work and just about every story is going to need reworked and rewritten and revised. But you're not even close to knowing what sort of problems you really might be having or to start thinking things should be perfect when the've barely started.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  13. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    These are just roadblocks you've set up for yourself. It doesn't have to be written any particular way. It certainly doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be anything.

    Can I give you the advice I make myself follow when I get like this? Just fuck it up. Do it badly. Do it wrong. Make it fuckin' weird and totally different than you think it should be. Break it irreparably. Force yourself to ignore all of the rules you've established and just see what shakes out.

    Every time I've done this with a project -- made myself stop insisting, "No, it can't be done this way, because ..." -- it's turned out better for it. Kill ya darlins.
     
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  14. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Senior Member

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    Okay, I don't think I emphasized enough how setting-driven this story is. It's what Orson Scott Card calls the Milieu story. Building the setting, making everything fit without inconsistencies, is part of what I'm doing here. I can't tell a different story in a world I haven't fleshed out yet.

    It isn't a static world either, it's in the process of changing, and that change is what divides the POVs. That also limits my freedom.

    The latter. Just made this thread for funsies. /sarcasm

    Yep it's the bad one.

    I honestly just want to forget about it for a while. I tend to hyperfocus on things, so writing with the same characters will probably just draw me back in and my work will wind up being extensions of the story.

    Now that I think about it, my excessive editing is probably due to my very slow pace of actual progress. I think 'getting past this point will need lots of work, but there's lots of easy stuff here to improve'. And I can't help myself. That's why I need an easier story.

    That would just ruin my emotional investment in the story. I really want to see where it goes from here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  15. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Then don't quit writing it.

    Didn't you make a thread along these lines already? I seem to remember saying this to you before: either write it or don't. If you want to write this story (or setting, apparently), then write it. Stop coming up with reasons why you can't. Get out of your own damn way.
     
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  16. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Finishing something in first draft form written terribly is better than writing a perfect chapter.

    Get rid of your idea of “good” and “bad” and just write the damn thing! Then rewrite and rewrite. You’ll get nowhere fast trying to write liek a master the first time - in fact you’ll find that every writer worth anything will start with a terrible first draft. After that it is a matter of a logn slog through seversl rewrites before arriving at something that doesn’t seem altogether repulsive.

    Also a break can help a lot too. Don’t take writting to seriously because it’ll eat ou up whole and “god” of writing will taunt you into doing nothing. Let it out as best you can as quickly as you can then go to the editting process and find joy in that. If you’re editting as you go and you’ve never written a story before you’re just needlessly torturing yourself and will end up with little to nothing to show at the end of it (which will never end.)

    Hope that helps. Certainly helped me saying it because I do the same thign far too often myself. It’s hard to drop self-critique and just let the skeleton of the story out sometimes. The issue is maybe ou find yourself having bouts of great writing fridt attempt and think you can sustain it ... you cannot, no one can. Just be glad you have moments where your words feel worthy of your thoughts - it doesn’t happen that often without persistent and painfully time consuming work.
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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    Have you tried patches?
     
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  18. rincewind31

    rincewind31 Active Member

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    The story doesn't have to be written, and it doesn't have to be perfect. You've wrote a thousand words so you haven't really invested anything in the story apart from the time you've so far spent obsessing. Either plough or through with your first draft, or write something else.
     
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  19. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    Why is it limiting your 'freedom'? You mean limiting you in how you tell your story? I gotta say, if your trying to write something in a way because you think you have to, drop that right there. Your story, your rules, you can change anything and everything you decide you want to. If you trying to write something you don't enjoy, you won't do as good a job. Find something that makes you enthusiastic, and tell that story. My current draft is technically my second, but I almost think of it as a second first because I changed the story so drastically. Really all it's got the same now is two characters, and literally everything else changed.



    If you need to take a break, I'd say go ahead and take a break. But it sounds like, from other posts, that anything you end up trying to write instead will have the same problems. Therefore it's not a problem with the story, it's a problem with the process. You know what the best way to get better at writing is? Actually writing.

    Do you know why first drafts are called 'rough' drafts? Because they are a mess. You are telling the story to yourself, so who cares about consistency, or accuracy, or anything else. I had a character change species 3 times, my setting twice in 5 paragraphs, and allll sorts of stuff. Just sit down and finish that draft. The second one is when you can start prettying it up and making it into an actual story other people will read.
     
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  20. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    There's a word for this process: it's 'accretion'. The chance that a writer can craft a perfect story all on their first try from scratch is dismally low: you need a shitty first draft, something to build up and mold and change. The inconsistencies will be weeded out slowly, the setting will be shaped over time. Trying to do it all right the first time just gets a writer tangled up in their own web; let me explain.

    If you have too many changing factors--if [X] changes [Y] but then [Z] changes [Y] so you have to go back and change [X] which changes [A], and [C], you're never going to get anywhere. Writers can easily pigeonhole themselves into a trap where changing one thing alters seven others, and they never move forward.

    If your story takes place in two different times on a timeline, you've got a lot of work ahead of you: because it sounds like, since the story is setting-driven, you need to build up the entire world as it appears before your characters have interacted with it for each timeline. So you need to worldbuild twice. At the bare minimum, if you do this, you'll have a solid foundation for how your world actually is before your story takes place. You'll have an anchor to check your consistencies against. But you NEED that core first, or you'll be running around in circles.
     
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  21. BlitzGirl

    BlitzGirl Contributor Contributor

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    If the story takes place in two different timelines in this one world, why not try focusing on writing only from one character's POV, and then later write the other POV, and then figure out how you want to weave the two together? It's basically what Peter Jackson and his editor did when putting The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers and Return of the King movies together. They had all this footage to pull from, but since those two films had many different POVs to follow, Peter figured it'd be easier to spend a few weeks editing together only Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's story, then spend another week doing the Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas story, almost like he was making several small films...and then wove them together when all the good bits were edited.

    I'm not sure if your setting/world allows for that kind of process at this time, but since you indicated that the two POVs are in different time periods in this world, this method may at least help get the gears in your head spinning, and you can focus on world-building each specific time period.
     
  22. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I think this is a very common problem for a lot of new writers. Which writer was it that said 'I want to have written, rather than write.' ? I'm probably paraphrasing, but it's not until you try to write - let's say a novel - that you realise just what a slog it is. It's mental graft beyond which many people's minds (including my own) are prepared, or even have the ability, to go.

    I've given up trying to write a novel - and I don't say that feeling sorry for myself or looking for encouragement. I've tried, but after my last attempt had to force myself to accept I'm never going to do it. I could do it, if I had all the qualities required, but I don't have those qualities and I'm not prepared to beat myself up over it any longer.

    My love of writing now lies firmly with poetry. It's not particularly good yet, but I can do it. And by do it I mean write a finished piece. I may write the occasional short story (or even more likely flash story) but novels, forget it.

    What I'm trying to say with all this waffling, is that you need to ask yourself, seriously, are you prepared to put in the hard work?
     
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  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    All writing is hard work. And I totally know where you're coming from. My novel is not my priority. Sometimes I try to make it that. I do think I will finish it. This will be the second novel I complete. The first one was also a lot of work and nothing came of it. Maybe I became a better writer or learned discipline, but it did not get published or even come close.

    I fell in love with poetry one semester in grad school. I read it. I wrote it. I dreamed it. I breathed it. And I can write correct poetry in just about every form, but that doesn't make it good. If you've got the talent, keep it up. There is a lot to learn and study with poetry, but I think very few actually get that call to write it that lasts long enough for them to become good at it. I now unofficially teach poetry to teens. I think poetry has a lot to teach us, and I hope to inspire with my lessons. PM me @OurJud or anyone else who might have poetry suggestions to inspire youth. I'm not talking about inspiring them to write it. I want them to think and question things in this world that don't seem right to them. I want them to know art and words are important. Plath is next on the agenda. But I really am open to any suggestions you have, given you probably read more poetry than I do.

    Me, personally, I'm a short story writer. Sometimes an essayist. And sometimes when I write these things people buy them. The short stories I write take me a good deal of time -- anywhere from weeks to month to years. I find that these things need to be revisited and often reworked to bring them up to a certain standard. I'm just saying that even short form writing can be all consuming and still require a ton of discipline. I think all writers need to accept the fact that they might not be very good (especially in the beginning). You can hope to be the exception, but I sure wasn't and don't know anyone who has had success without failing a million times first. I said this in another thread and I think it's really true: It takes about a decade to become an overnight success. And that's probably true for just about all creative writing.
     
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  24. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Saying that something has to be written a certain way, and that the final first draft will be perfect is also going to set you up for failure when it comes to taking feedback from betas, editors, agents and/or publishers. Unless of course you're just writing for yourself, in which case please cheerfully ignore my advice. :)
     
  25. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I'm afraid I can't really offer any advice in the teaching or sharing of poetry. I don't even write it with the hope of being published. It's nice to share it here and get opinions, and I archive them by means of a tumblr blog which also acts as a back-up, but for me it's just an outlet which fiction writing has ceased to provide.
     
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