Writing a Story from Female vs. Male First-Person Perspective - A Lot Different?!

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Marthix2016, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    Yeah. At that point, I usually just stop the conversation and walk away.

    I do, too. In my office, I'm the nice, sweet, normal person. I've had people comment on how patient and professional I am. It's the #1 comment I get from my coworkers and my bosses.

    It's funny, though. The instant I get mad about something, those exact same people start throwing stereotypes at me. Joking that I'm over-sensitive and saying I must lose my temper a lot because I'm a redhead.

    No, Bob. I'm losing my temper because you're a jackass.
     
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  2. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    When I was reading about this stuff a lot, the most critical evaluation had to do with typical male vs female personality traits. Men being more inclined to be more assertive, attracted to risk, and disagreeable, while women have more enthusiasm, are more orderly, more compassionate, more polite, and more incline to withdraw. There are other interesting differences in openness and confidence in intellectual abilities.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

    So often stories where someone says the gender doesn't matter (not pointing at any of you) the protagonist is disagreeable, risk seeking, and assertive. If the protagonist is compassionate, enthusiastic, polite, and open, people will call the character weak (I admit it might be less obvious how to write for this sort of character).

    Any one woman can be more disagreeable, closed, confident in her intellectual abilities, lacking in compassion, and assertive when compared to average men. So if a writer writes a female character this way, it is still realistic.

    The issue comes in when you look at the set of all female protagonists (science fiction / fantasy / crime / spy). So, so many of them have more typical masculine traits. Not all, of course, but lots.

    That basically equates to a sinister sort of invisible sexism: acting masculine is better. Or put another way, openness, compassion, orderliness, risk aversion... these aren't heroic traits, and that's kinda messed up.

    I'd like to read about more female AND male heroes who are enthusiastic, compassionate, polite, and open.

    There are plenty of open, enthusiastic, polite, and compassionate men. Toxic masculinity is partly the belief that it isn't okay to be this way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  3. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I was thinking more traits/tropes than politically driven narratives. Honestly I don't think of black stereotypes when I hear the word stereotype and probably should explain myself better. I can get myself into trouble on these forums with a casual comment and I might be stepping in it further, maybe I'm a ditz but I think of goofy stereotypes or tropes -- the male randy redhead, short guys are more combative then big guys, the gentle giant etc. And maybe there is a grain of truth in a trait or trope I don't know. Do I get any more angry than the average person being a redhead? -- I have no idea. But why does it seem to be a thing to say so if there isn't a grain of truth? Have many people noticed that redheads have bigger tempers and that's why people nod their head and circulate the idea or is it more that stories showed angry redheads and when people loved them everyone decided to jump on the bandwagon and create their own crazy, angry redhead. Maybe it's just an old wives tale. I honestly don't know.
    Now I'm actually thinking of doing some research on the subject.
     
  4. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    ^This is what I keep coming back to.

    I don't think it matters if women and men "generally" act differently.

    An individual can act any way that you want.
     
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  5. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    You know, if men and women were socialized the same... if we all had the same expectations, and if we treated men and women exactly the same... I think those little differences would disappear.

    But that's just me. And I guess it's just speculation.
     
  6. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Could be. Sounds like a good topic for speculative fiction :)
     
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  7. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

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    This is a little off course, but these conversations always get me thinking about how fantasy writers have the option to make their societies have gender egalitarianism. I feel like, among other female writers of fantasy at least, I'm kind of a weirdo because I actually prefer to write sexist cultures. I find it more compelling, I guess. In general I like to write about characters who have to fight against social constraints. I totally get why someone would want to leave sexism out of their stories, though.

    And granted, I only go for mildly sexist cultures. I hate it when that kind of over-the-top oppression is shoehorned in to make things "realistic" when it's really not.

    Sorry, this was a total digression lol.
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    One of the problems I think lots of folks have touched on in this thread is that gender stereotypes do exist in many cultures ...I'd say most, but I don't have statistics to hand. Some of them are not as strong as they used to be, but some of them still do exist.

    For example, how many modern mothers teach their sons to do everybody's washing and ironing (not just their own), cook everybody's meals, make everybody's beds, clean the house regularly, clean the bathrooms, mend a sister's clothes, make the grocery list and do the shopping as often as anybody else in the household—including putting everything away when they get home, and making sure that everybody's food preferences are catered for? While I'm sure some mothers do, I sure know a lot of them who don't. Men CAN do all of those things, of course, but they're not really expected to. Therefore it is true that a large proportion of boys and men are not as adept at these chores as women are, because for them, these chores are optional.

    I suspect all genders are affected by these kinds of stereotypes, to an extent. For example, @Mckk pointed out that, in general, Japanese women are quiet and subservient compared to men. Women are expected to be this way in that culture, and that culture reinforces the stereotype. Therefore most Japanese women will strive to 'be' what is expected of them—and men will strive to be dominant and decisive.

    I grew up in a culture where women were not supposed to open their own doors if men were around. In fact, it was considered rude for a woman to barge ahead and open a door. This reinforced the stereotype that women are fragile creatures who need male help with physical things. Most men couldn't cook back then either ...not because men can't cook, but because the male stereotype kept them out of the kitchen. Cooking was 'women's work.' Most women took a faulty car to a mechanic because 'women don't know anything about cars.' Of course they didn't ...mainly because they were not expected to learn, and were never taught. I remember working in a restaurant where 'the women' weren't supposed to carry cases of coke. That was a man's job. Most of the women I worked with deferred to this. Not because they couldn't carry a case of coke (I certainly carried them) but because this is how they were expected to behave. Women are still 'expected' to wear nylon stockings and high heeled shoes and carry a purse to dressy events—like weddings or formal parties. If we don't, we're bucking the stereotype and we get noticed for it.

    When you write about a culture that carries gender stereotypes, any character who bends or ignores those stereotypes is not going to be seen as 'oh, they're just normal, doing what everybody does' but they are going to be seen as somehow 'different.' Whether this difference engenders envy and admiration, or disapproval and ostracism depends on other factors. But you can't write a story within that kind of culture without these things getting noticed.

    Therefore it does matter whether a character is male or female in most cultures. Even if your readers don't hold a stereotype themselves, chances are the other characters in the story will be doing so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  9. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    The way we are is a mixture of nature and nurture. My POV characters are very different not just because they're one male and one female, but their cultures are very different. My vampires are somewhat matriarchal, and the females of the species are prone to being berserkers (especially if their children are threatened) so the guy grew up in that world. The other was raised by self-absorbed parents who weren't happy with her being an artist and she was their dumping ground for their emotional toxic waste. So naturally they behave in ways that do not mesh well at first.

    With Harry Potter, his ignorance of his parents' world and his sense of justice are a bigger part of who he is than the fact he's a boy.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Because red is the color of fire? That's always been my assumption. I may be wrong and the origin may be something else (maybe racism against the Irish, for example?) but that's still an example of how there can be a "why" without there being even a grain of truth. I'd say that there's a reason for tropes and stereotypes, rather than there being truth in them.
     
  11. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    From what I heard, the stereotype became common in the Middle Ages because prints of Biblical illustrations painted Cain as being a redhead. He killed his brother, Abel, in a fit of jealousy because God accepted Abel's offering but not his.
     
  12. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

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    Yup. Exactly.

    You want further evidence that stereotypes aren't based in truth, all you have to do is look at the myriad conflicting stereotypes that exist. A common pair that's been thrown at various minorities throughout the years is a laziness/stealing jobs dichotomy. "Mexicans are coming here and taking all the jobs." "Mexicans are coming here and not even working, they're just leeching off social services."

    People see what they expect to see. They take a single example or two and expand it to form their whole worldview. It's a natural human tendency, but it's a huge mistake and a logical fallacy to assume that a generalization is based on the truth. If I'd only met three dogs in my life and two of them were Irish setters, it'd be stupid for me to say, "I mean, don't you think it's a little bit true that most dogs are Irish setters?"
     
  13. Michele I

    Michele I Member

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    Excellent point, and well said, Dragon Turtle!
     
  14. Michele I

    Michele I Member

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    A eye-opening book I once read was about a married couple where the husband was having an affair; there was so much blame and bitterness, and the story is told with three protagonist. We see, hear and feel the males POV, the wife's POV, and the other woman's POV. It was quite interesting.
     
  15. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Thank you for the detailed response. Helped me out a lot here. Well, I want to stay true to who she is. I will have to do a little more research on her being a crime lord. I wouldn’t necessarily say she’s stereotypical...because what she does for her career is not very common for the ‘hero’ of the story. She definitely does have a love interest, another female actually that comforts her. Should I worry about my character being too hot-tempered because she has a few flashes of that? If it’s true to her personality, then I would stick to it. I wouldn’t say her story is going to have a “Happily Ever After”...it won’t be like the ending or epilogue for Harry Potter or The Hunger Games. If she survives, she’d never have children or anything of that sort like Harry and Katniss did...that’s just not who she is at all. I could imagine her love interest (assuming she survives too) living together with her or something. Her story wouldn’t have a ‘typical’ or stereotypical ending. Would be very different. Would I rather write a story that sticks true to her character or one that doesn’t feel authentic in order to obtain a greater audience? I would choose the former for sure.
     
  16. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Thank you for your words. I like being different as well. I’m a dude and it’s so much fun to walk in the shoes of a female character, makes it a bit more exciting. Yes, you could say I’m taking a typical character and reinventing them into a female. When I call my character a tough-as-nails character or a badass, she may be all that but she is human and she won’t win every fight in her story. She has flaws...she does have a hot temper at times (and other flaws too) but not to the point where the reader would call her a bitch. I don’t plan on showcasing her showing up men...of course she will defeat men in battle and such but I won’t a ‘beat the dead horse’ mentality towards it. She may seem very hard on the outside but there will be times where she gets emotional and breaks down. She will have a dark sense of humor...she does have a heart and she does care for people in her life. She is just a bit more edgy.
     
  17. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Thanks for answering that question as well my friend. Well, I guess personal preference for me since I’m a dude and I read about dudes kicking ass all the time, I want something different and have my main character a female so she can kick ass. I gut and my heart tells me I have the perfect character. I know her inside and out so well. I shouldn’t change who she is based on some stereotypical or cultural norm thing. Maybe I’ve been thinking that some of my readers would say some of her actions may not be found in your typical female character in most stories. I was worried about losing readers. I mean she is a bit more hardwired than most females you’d read about in books. If I know who this young woman is, why would I want to self-correct her? If I’m walking the world in her boots, what would she say or what would she do? If I made her a guy instead and walked in those same boots, would I write it a lot differently? I wouldn’t think so.

    You’re right in that my protagonist will have to be bitchy every so often. A crime boss isn’t your typical hero’s job. I can admit she has a certain type of aura or charisma about her that people will bow to her. She is very human though. She isn’t perfect by any means. She is very strong physically in the body but she does have a big disadvantage when it comes to combat that readers will later find out. She won’t win every fight. And for her underlings, she does have a heart. There is another female character who comforts her and I think they may develop a romance with each other. My character will break down at times and get emotional. She may have a very tough outside but not the inside she can get emotional and shed tears. In the end, I think my readers will become attached to my crime lord protagonist and develop sympathy for her. She’s gone through a lot and if she gets a little bit out of control with her temper, I think the readers will allow that to pass. I really think my audience will like her for she who is, who I know her to be.
     
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  18. LastMindToSanity

    LastMindToSanity Contributor Contributor

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    Remember when Hermione decked Draco? Or how about when Katniss went on that anger induced murder-rampage after the death of one of the other tributes in the first book? Annabeth likes to bitch about Hera. How about when the main character in shounen finally gets all pissed off and the readers get really hyped. People love anger when it's justified, just look at the prank videos whenever the prankster finally gets that well-deserved ass-kicking. More importantly, however, everyone gets angry. Even if they only show it on the inside, characters have to get really raged at one point or another or they cease to feel real.

    I think you're good about the anger levels of your character. Hell, even if your character is really angry all of the time (Not saying that yours is, but this is just for more advice on this subject), you can still make that a good character. If you do find that you have a character that's usually more angry than not, then the simple fix is to have all of their major character development happen when they finally calm down and can reflect on their actions while angry. Like, you know how people get really excited when the calm-collected character just royally pissed off and finally show off their bad side? Then, when your hot-tempered character finally calms down, then your readers will feel relieved, and relax along with the character while that character finally shows off their good side.

    The point is that, even if you have a character that's "too hot-tempered", the moments that your audience will remember, and take to heart, are the moments when they're calmer and more in control of their actions.
     
  19. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Good points about shaping men and women according to the society in the story I’m writing. What are the societal or stereotypical norms? Gender norms? Etc.? My character is a crime lord...in the society of my character’s world...males and females are treated as equals pretty much all the way. They both fight in combat...there is no imbalance of one or the other. But I want to make my female protagonist stand out from the pack a little bit. There will be other amazing female characters in my story that can fight and everything so as not to make my protagonist this “ultimate female badass that shows up men” Everyone has a fair shot at whatever occupation they want to be in. If I thought up difference ‘gender roles’ I’d have to think on that some more as to what would be different and showcased from her perspective. Thank you for your words.
     
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  20. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Good thought process there for me to consider. Good point...did she inherit this from her mother or father? Or the other option? I think she has a lot of her father’s drive in her and she worked her way to the top. Ha, good point about the stereotype part...if she pretends a stereotype is true and she sneaks in for the kill. I have a good example of that of a scene where she’d use her physical strength for the advantage and the kill. Would be risky on her part at the same time but this girl is willing to risk those means to take down the people she opposes and gets what she wants. She may be power hungry to an extent but that’s not her ultimate motive. Something more. I would like to structure her society so gender isn’t a big deal at all. Males and females are treated equally in her society.
     
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  21. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Interesting thoughts. Especially the D&D part. And yeah, everyone has different testosterone levels...some males can have low levels and some females can have high levels...hmm...if I were to put my female crime lord in the scenario of your D&D group, how would she react? I think she would actually be a bit borderline but leaning towards the going to kill them part. She truly does care for people but typically people in her own inner circle only. She has a lot of her father in her, so she’s typically a bit more on the aggressive side of things.
     
  22. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    This is what I do when I write. I don't know if it's right or wrong: When writing a novel/story, I first and foremost write a person, so what statistics and biology tell me about the differences between men and women will dictate the character's behavior very little. I won't be deaf and blind to them, but they aren't helpful when I'm deciding, say, the character's response to a stressful situation even if the statistics told me on average women choose flight and men choose fight (just an example, no idea if this is true).

    You are free to shape her personality to be almost whatever because in the real world there are women who are assertive and men who are submissive and so on. There are things like her core personality and her upbringing that make her who she is, though it's possible that because she's a woman, she's been treated differently, and this could attribute to the kind of person she is. While probably not an option in your gender egalitarian society, there could've been things like she was belittled for being a girl and that prompted her to rise above and prove to all the dudes that despite being a girl, she can do thing x, or she was sexually harassed because of her sex a lot and that made her want to become a bodybuilder so her body would appear less feminine. If there's a story like that in her past, it'd be hard to just change the sex of the POV and expect a plausible result. Conversely, a male character being terrorized by his father to fit only one male mold and then him deciding to rebel against it would be a uniquely male experience because it's rooted in the idea of what is manly.
     
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  23. Privateer

    Privateer Senior Member

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    Yes. The way women write shows that, as a rule, they think and feel sufficiently differently from me and people like me that my character- whose thoughts and feelings are heavily influenced by my own in many ways- would not sound convincing as a woman at all.

    Men and women are not identical inside or out and no, it's not all down to 'society'. Our body chemistry is sufficiently different that it would be remarkable if we did react in the same way to everything.

    People need to get over this wrong-headed idea that 'difference' is always bad.
     
  24. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    How do women write?
     
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  25. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Thing is that there is a big spectrum of what women are like ( and how women write but I'm not getting involved in what promises to be a pointless side argument) just as there is a big spectrum of what men are like, and some men may be more similar to some women than they are to other men ( or vice versa)

    People are people. Anyone who can write a male character can also write that character as a woman ( with appropriate research ) or vice versa.
     
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