1. atsgtm2018

    atsgtm2018 Member

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    Theme: Can Love Save?

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by atsgtm2018, Jul 22, 2018.

    I’d like to get some insight on some character dynamics. I know it may have been done before but I’d like get some inside on this. My story goes like this:


    “A suicide and an addict meet and fall in love and try to make their relationship work through each other’s demons. Through each other’s journey of healing, they soon find that their love may be the key to their survival or could lead to the destruction of their relationship and themselves.”

    I was wondering what you guys feel about the dynamic between two “toxic and dysfunctional” characters. Personally I romanticize these types of things, but does any else believe that a relationship like this could make it? My real question in this story and theme is this: Can love save?
     
  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    That's an interesting question, and one I'll need to think about.

    My instinct is to say no, love won't 'save.' It might provide a motivation for change, which can lead to 'salvation'—if you mean salvation from problems and demons a person suffers from. But love involves putting another person first, doesn't it? Is an addict or chronically suicidal person able to put somebody else's needs ahead of their own? I don't know. Maybe for a while, but can this be sustained? Again, I don't know.

    I reckon love is complicated enough, without adding these serious problems into the mix.

    I can see why a person who feels starved of love would fantasize about getting it, and hoping it will solve all their problems. But love first needs to be separated from lust. It also needs to be separated from substitution. Substituting the love of a partner for the love a family never provided can be a huge dead end. When the lust fades (as it will) or the partner gets tired of being a substitute 'mom' or 'dad' then the relationship will suffer.

    Nothing is going to change the past. You can only change the future. If your love relationship is geared around filling gaps left by your past, I reckon it's unlikely to last. There is too much baggage, and focuses on one person's need rather than respect and concern for the other person. Needy equals self absorption, which is not a good foundation for love.

    Just thinking here. That's my first reaction to your question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  3. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    I think there are hundreds or more books like that where "all the need was love" - but I find it bit unrealistic and while a relationship like that might be good for both of them - love wouldn't never be the full solution. Love can't fix problem. Love won't remove addiction and love won't make someone less suicidal. The problems are still there, they might just be easier to deal with if you find someone to go through them with.

    That said - two people with hard issues are probably (realistically) more likely to drag each other down than helping each other - but that's old experiences talking.

    I think plenty of people would read a story like that - so write if you want to write. I personally would never and get slightly cringy at the theme "can love save".
     
  4. Solar

    Solar Banned Contributor

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  5. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    I think I agree with Lemie.
    Love can help, but love is it’s own struggle and could make things worse just as it could make things better.
    As a theme, 'can love save' feels somewhat generic and more importantly lacking a certain amount of depth and realism.
    The reality is just more complicated and interesting than that.

    But it's not a bad place to start I suppose. You can keep the idea to an extent, you just need to develop it into something with more depth and realism.
    As Lemie said, in many cases two people with similar issues like this make each other worse. But this could easily play to your advantage if you pull things off right. If in such a situation, things often get worse, that adds tension to the plot, and you can then explore in detail how their problems help and hurt each other and (presumably) find an interesting way for it to actually work out in spite of such an expectation. The key here is taking a deeper look at how it all works and providing a sense of different perspectives, making it more than just a statement on the issue but an exploration of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  6. GlitterRain7

    GlitterRain7 Galaxy Girl Contributor

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    I pretty much agree with what has been said above. Love can't fix people. Also, the person's lover can't fix the person, as much as they would like to. Love can inspire someone to change, but it won't just automatically happen because they're in love.
    Yes, it could make it, but it depends on the characters in question. They might either bring each other down to the point where they're dangerous to each other, or they might inspire each other to seek help and get better.
     
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  7. NotARealWriter

    NotARealWriter New Member

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    Save how? Save you from cancer? No. Addiction? No. Suicide, depression, stress, boredom? Sure, maybe temporarily.

    And sure it could work, or they may end up pulverizing each other with laser weapons. I don't think that what they are would ultimately define how the relationship ends, more like the context and what they do with it.
     
  8. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I am gonna go with no.
    Love is abstract and irrational,
    in it's own way. (Don't shoot me).
    It can be a motivator to change,
    sometimes for the better and others
    for the worse.

    In my WIP I have a character that uses
    her feelings of love for another to do some
    very nasty things, with the end result that
    she gets her lover back. Doesn't mean that
    it will work in the long run, but it sure paints
    an interesting incite in to just what lengths
    a being will go to for the one they are emotionally
    invested in. Even at great detriment to themselves.

    (Neat I made word staircase, how odd) :p
     
  9. atsgtm2018

    atsgtm2018 Member

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    Thanks all, I’m really going to take everything here into account when I’m thinking about developing these characters. My goal with this idea as I’m aware with DK3654 that idea is lacking depth but I intend to make it grow naturally and really explore how everything happened.

    My vision with this is to essentially see how toxic can something go until it gives out or is there a crossroads where two people can come at the same time in their life and decide this is where we both need to change if we they want to salvage what they have between them. For their love to live, individually they both have to decide if they can break from their self-destructive habits so they can each live. Go ahead and feel free to add on this. Love all the input.
     
  10. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    Better, but don't forget that you want to do more than just make things one sidely good or bad. Look at the different facets there when you get to the actual work.
     
  11. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    Huh.

    Well, I’m going to go against the grain here. I don’t think “love can save,” but I think two dysfunctional people can help each other become functional.

    I’m doing a similar thing in a story right now. One character is a career criminal and the other is a suicidal drug addict. It might sound weird, but keep each other sane. The suicidal guy talks the criminal out of committing crimes. The criminal convinces the suicidal guy to seek therapy and go on medication— even driving him to his appointments, saving him from a suicide attempt, and helping him cut toxic people out of his life.

    The key, though, is that both of them want to become better. They both KNOW the other person is helping them— and they want help.

    So yeah.

    And on top of that, yeah, they love each other. And that is a motivating factor.

    But maybe I’m naive.

    My husband and I have always helped each other improve. The key is recognizing “I’m bad at this. I’m weak here. My partner is better. I’ll ask for help, because I genuinely want help.”
     
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  12. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    Happens every day.

    Two deeply wounded & problematic peoples can see each other just as they are and still appreciate & trust the other and by the other one also themselves.

    If they are toxic and dysfunctional they are t&d for some reasons and against some that triggers t&d behavior. As long love and loved is outside that target & trigger area they are ok. But if loved one will trigger or be targeted, the relation transforms from safe haven to... both act of becoming independent and dependency.


    That also happens every day. More.

    1. Self hate is very common thing with both addictions and being suicidal.

    Sometimes you can tolerate yourself by putting someone else before you. When you are really deep, you can't lift yourself. But when you lift someone else, you start to rise also.

    2. Sometimes.

    3. Being insatiable is a process where you try to fulfill real deep need with a substitute that does not fulfill that deep need.

    Being accepted and/or loved and/or seen as you are... could be that kind of deep needs.

    And after you can fulfill that deep need, you have better change to get rid of the substitutes. Not easy but possible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  13. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Predetermined themes can often mess up a good story. And cliche themes don't really do a writer any favors. It sounds like you could have the makings of a good story. Forget theme. Focusing on theme is at best a waste of time and at worst going to pull or force stories in directions that allow them to fit in some box. Themes are for the critics and reviewers to write about. I don't think theme. I think story. And I think there is a big difference in these two approaches.
     
  14. wrabel

    wrabel Member

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    I agree with what has been said above mostly. Addiction is a disease that manifests physically, mentally, and emotionally, as is being suicidal. Finding the right person isn't just going to make them go away and make everything better. Having someone to talk to and trust might help you get over addiction or lessen your suicidal thoughts, but both of these diseases are lifetime struggles. I think that romanticizing depression/suicide or addiction is something that is done too much in the media (take 13 Reasons Why) and it is unhelpful for people reading the book/watching the movie/tv show who might already be dealing with these things.

    Maybe because they are together they feel like they always have someone to talk to- someone who is a constant because they are in a relationship. Being with someone else might encourage them to seek therapy/help, but falling it love isn't a fix all. Also remember that being in love with the idea of being in love is not the same thing as actually being in love, just as lusting after someone is not loving them.

    You would never write about two people falling in love and suddenly realizing that their cancer is gone, so know that that's not going to happen for someone dealing with suicidal thoughts either.
     
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  15. fjm3eyes

    fjm3eyes Member

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    Can love save? An interesting question. I don't know, but I suppose the answer could depend upon what is what is meant Love.

    I've written a short story, The Dark --- read this the darkness of depression. One of the characters, The Storyteller, is grappling with why he's where he is (in earlier versions, an asylum). Another character, Sophia, is beset with monsters, the monsters of depression. The try to help each other through the darkness. In a sense, they are "saved" by the "love" they share for each other.

    The question is, I think, a broad one. Thank you for asking it.
     
  16. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    What kind of addict?
    - Stephen King, Alan Sorkin and hundreds of other top artists have told about they years as addicts.
    - Trailer park / ghetto persons with crack or meth addiction live totally different life with totally different expectations than these creative & intelligent rich people.
    - Middle class wannabe is also something else.

    Go & talk with addicts. Read what they tell.

    Don't create card boar addict. Addicts are complex peoples in very complex world.

    What kind of suicidal person?
    - Empty life elitist?
    - Rape victim with no self-esteem?
    - Someone haunted by what he/she has done? (Drove drunk and killed his family? Didn't help someone who died because of that?)
    - Drama queen seeking attention going too far?

    "Can love save them?”

    It might be very closely connected to what kind of "them" they are.

    Many have been saved. What saved them? Love and/or faith and/or AA/NA/Minnesota? Something else?

    Real world real humans are very good starting point for character development. From there to what has really happened when someone has been saved. From characters to real life and from real life to story.

    Talk with addicts. Listen to them. Talk with suicidal peoples. Listen to them.
     
  17. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    I know this might be a bit of a tangent, but I think maybe this is the wrong question?

    What kind of audience are you writing for, and should the question be "Does your audience want love to save?"

    ...or, maybe even more importantly, do you?
     
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  18. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    I understood his/her question as "does it really happen in real life"?

    That's why my focus was in "you should pay attention to what has really happened in real lives of rare survivors" -direction.

    I know personally lots of both - addicts and suicidal people. Some are alive, most are not.

    What was in the lives of survivors?
    - Love
    - Faith
    - AA/NA
    At least one, often 2 or 3 of those.

    "Storylines" and "plots" of real life survivors tell the truth of this question. And if we know the truth we can make better fiction.
     
  19. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    You can think shame as a lack of reciprocal social approval. If you define shame like that, you find out that 90% of shame is rooted to other peoples moral codes & practises. And you internalise that lack of approval that targets you.

    If you pay attention to list above - love, faith, AA - you find out that there is something that connects all of them. They are "places" where an addict or selfhater can get lots of social approval while being what he/she really is deep down.

    Deep shame = you don't have a place where to be, to exist. There is no room for you in the world of humans. So you don't have a reason to exist. So you don't seek lust, approval... but either a place to be and exist or nonexistance.

    Love, faith or AA/NA might give you both inner and outer permission to exist. That is one part of how they save.
     
  20. wrabel

    wrabel Member

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    Suicide is a mental illness not a disease- that's what I meant
     
  21. Zerotonin

    Zerotonin Serotonin machine broke

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    Disease (N) - a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

    Based on its definition, mental illnesses are, in fact, diseases.
     
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  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think suicide, as itself, is a mental illness (or a mental disease)... it's an action. It's an action that may be taken as a result of mental illness (like depression) but it's not an illness itself.
     
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  23. wrabel

    wrabel Member

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    Sorry. That's what I meant. You're right.
     
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