Writing a Story from Female vs. Male First-Person Perspective - A Lot Different?!

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Marthix2016, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't know that I see a prom dress as fancier than a tuxedo... especially SOME tuxedos...

    [​IMG]

    And as someone who works with teens I can say that I see roughly as many boys who are preoccupied with their grooming as girls.

    For the women at the Gerewol, see:

    [​IMG]

    They're dressed up, I'd say, but... not like the guys, for sure!
     
  2. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

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    The whole thing about women dressing fancy and in bright colors while men are drab seems to be a uniquely modern Western thing (and is obviously not universal even then). Like, seriously, if you were born at pretty much any other time in history, you would not have that stereotype. It's nothing innate.

    I'm not sure what asking people to go on dates and marry you really has to do with it... like @izzybot said, humans have much more complex social structures. Show me a culture where anyone, male or female, is making their decision for marriage partners based solely on how the other person is dressed.

    You gotta watch more nature documentaries then. o_O And frankly, "woman says no, the man backs off" is how it works most of the time with humans, too.
     
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  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    But this thread is about stereotypes (or rather a 'standard' to which the genders are expected to conform) as regards writing. If a writer chooses to ignore or deny a stereotype, that's fine. But it will get noticed, depending on what culture they are writing about.

    I'm trying to demonstrate that stereotypes do exist. Yes, you will find exceptions and some people buck the expectations and refuse to conform. But these expectations do exist. A writer should be aware of them.

    For example, if you are writing a story about a guy and a girl going to a prom at a typical high school in the USA, and the girl wears a tuxedo and the boy wears a long dress and carries a corsage, THIS WILL BE NOTICED, commented on, and will probably go 'viral,' because it bucks the stereotype. There is nothing wrong with it of course—and by all means, do it in your story if you want to—but the swap will get noticed because it is different from what normally happens.

    Stereotypically, it's girls who wear long dresses to proms and boys who wear the tuxedo. If you send your characters off in what they are expected to wear, their clothing won't really matter (other than if people think it's pretty, or expensive, or whatever the standard might be in the context of your story.) If you send your characters off to the prom in reverse clothing, however, the clothing will get noticed—not because it's pretty, or ugly, or over the top or understated, or cheap or expensive, but because it is different. It bucks the stereotype. And you can't buck a stereotype that doesn't exist.

    On a slightly different tack, I do challenge this statement:

    Yes, men used to dress more ornately than they do now, BUT SO DID WOMEN. I challenge you to find a period in our history where that wasn't the case. Where women were drab and men were fancy, if they belonged to the same class of people. Obviously a poor woman is going to look drab next to a prince. But a princess won't.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Oh, that clears it up. I thought you were asking why humans don't engage in mating displays that are similar to those of animals, but if you're just pointing out stereotypes? For sure. Culture exists. Our characters may or may not conform to cultural stereotypes, and their conformity or lack thereof will probably have an effect on them.

    It's just important to be clear, I think, which sex-based-characteristics are innate and should therefore be maintained even if the author is writing in a different culture and which are just cultural stereotypes, which can be easily changed with a change in culture.
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, as a side observation, I did say I wondered why humans seem to dress females in fancy garb, leaving men (who generally do the picking) in more drab clothing, while it seems to be the opposite in the natural world. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a general rule?

    I can't think of any instance in the animal world where the female is 'fancier' and more colourful than the male. Can you? So yes, I was asking that. She's not trying to impress him. He's trying to impress her. But this wasn't totally connected with the stereotype issue.
     
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    No, but I can think of lots of examples of animals with no real difference, which is what I think we see in humans.
     
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  7. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    y’all are smart
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that this could be the core of the reason, though of course it just moves the question one level. In the animal world, I believe it's the females who generally do the picking, so the males need to compete, visually, to be picked.

    There are cultures where men tend, more, to go for visual display. It would be interesting to do a mapping of (1) men's and women's dress against (2) the extent to which women are free to choose their own mates.

    On the other hand, men aren't wandering around unshaven in sweatsuits and expecting to attract a woman. Men do put a lot of effort into their appearance when trying to attract a woman, but attractiveness, at least in the US and I'm guessing a lot of Western Europe, doesn't seem to be based on a lot of color and ornamentation--it's more often expressed in bland colors and perfect tailoring.

    It occurs to me that the fact that the "show" isn't biological probably also makes a difference. Humans are pretty bland colored overall, aside from the occasional head of red hair. In a species that naturally has a lot of color, extra color probably suggests extra health, and health is often at least partly genetic, and is therefore relevant in evolution terms. But for humans, color isn't all that relevant.

    So it may not be about color or ornamentation, but signs of health. Maybe a tall, strong man in a very well-tailored suit is a display of health relevant in evolutionary terms--though of course it's rather silly for me to be talking evolution against fashion--evolution doesn't work that fst.

    Of course, none of that explains why men have sometimes been brightly ornamented, and why women usually are. But I suppose my main theory is that for humans, coloring is no longer relevant to the choice of mate, in evolutionary terms.

    Edited to add: And as @BayView points out, color is not relevant to mating choice for all animals.
     
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  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Oh yes, I agree, as far as our natural shapes and forms are—and yes many animal genders are more or less the same in terms of colouring. In fact, sexing them can be a challenge. But in the ones that aren't the same the males are inevitably the 'pretty ones,' and it's their job to attract females—not the other way around. I wonder why, when we choose our own feathers, so to speak, we tend to reverse the trend.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, there is a lot in what you say here, regarding health being reflected in colour and ability to display with vigour. However, humans have been known to rate females based on their perceived ability to have children—and women dumped if they 'can't' have children, even if the male may equally be at fault. So again, it's the men doing the choosing and the judging. In the animal world? Not so much.

    Just observing.
     
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  11. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I can think of a forum or two on Reddit that are exceptions to that rule, LOL! :D
     
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  12. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    R/incels
     
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  13. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    Ha!

    They got banned from reddit, though, so not anymore.
     
  14. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Exactly what I'm getting at. Yeah...I mean...a girl in a tux and a guy in a dress...well that would definitely get noticed by the typical reader. Yes, do whatever we want when writing a story but you cannot deny it, the typical reader will pick this out. Nothing bad against it at all, do what we want when writing the story. I think for my female crime lord as the main character...well...knowing her I don't think she'd be the dress-wearing type and not wear anything high heels. Military-esque clothing and hidden armor and steel-toe boots. As far as the culture she lives in, this would be normal dress code for males and females in a military-esque role. Nothing insane or out-of-the-ordinary. She ain't going to be fighting in a dress or in high heels. I don't think the typical reader would find that odd. Now if I had a male crime lord instead as my main character and he wore a dress all the time, well obviously that would be very unusual. I think the typical audience would let the female go by with male clothing more so than vice-versa...see what I'm getting at if that makes sense? Like your example with the girl in a tux versus a dude in a dress. I go to Comic Book conventions a lot and I see a lot of gals dress up as dude characters ("Genderbend") than guys dressing up as gal characters.

    If I'm trying to write a female main character that the typical reader would find perhaps a bit different but very believable, then why would I change who she is? I could see her wearing a tux in certain occasions. I honestly cannot see her wearing a dress knowing her persona so well. Would be out-of-character for her. Would my average reader stop reading her story because she doesn't wear dresses? I would think not. She's definitely a different bird...not the typical hero you read about. For me, that what makes her fun to write. I absolutely love who she is.
     
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  15. 33percent

    33percent Active Member

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    I rooted for Lord Voldemort in the book series just because he was the most interesting character. Harry was such a cardboard boring pansy character.
     
  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Your enjoyment of your character will come through in your writing. You're not engineering her, you're getting to know her. I like that! :)
     
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  17. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    One thing I have to say is that after reading everyone’s advice, opinions, etc., I’ve learned not to worry too much about ‘stereotypes’. My main character is not your typical hero. I am writing her story without worrying about stereotypes. I know her exactly for who she is and how she would react in every situation.

    She has a bit of a temper, is a pretty aggressive fighter, she doesn’t prefer to wear dresses/high heels/etc...I could never see her wearing those...actually would much prefer to wear military type clothes and she is HUGE into combat boots...dare I say she would rather wear boxer briefs (tomboy briefs) too...it’s just the way she is...she loves being covered up, not exposing a lot of her skin..., she’s not the fondest of children, and uses some of her friends to get what she wants. Why would I ever change this woman because of stereotypes? It seems like in the world that the wall of stereotypes is coming down...male and females are being seen and treated more as equals and that’s how it should have been in the first place. People can do whatever they want to do, wear whatever they want, act however they want, etc. Everyone is different and that is the beauty of life and story-telling. There are people of all different walks of life in the stories we read as well as write; we see different people every day in person. My main character may be a different bird and she has some qualities I know some people won’t like but I absolutely love her for who she is. She is very intelligent, protective of herself and takes good care of herself, a little bit shy, ambitious to fulfill her mission, very beautiful inside and outside, there are so many great things I could write about her. Yeah, there will be moments where readers may call her a badass bitch (which could be good and/or bad) but in the long run I feel the majority of my readers will enjoy her and respect her for who she is. This woman in my story was built from the groundup in my head...there is no other character like her that I know. To me, she is totally unique and original and that’s what I love about her. She reminds me of me a bit at times, although her occupation is extremely dangerous and puts a bounty on her head. I have forged a deep connection to her and I really care a lot about her. How her story ends will be totally up to her. I have no idea if she will survive her story, of course I really hope she does, but she is the one driving the story so HER actions will determine what her fate will be. I’m just along for the ride, writing the thoughts and actions as they spin through her head.

    From all this, I’ve learned that write the story you want to write. Don’t allow some so-called biological, cultulal, or stereotypical laws prevent you from writing your character’s story. If you know who they are, write it.
     
  18. 33percent

    33percent Active Member

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    I think naturally we're bias towards our own gender even if we try to write a character opposite our own gender. The MC is usually an authors reflection of themselves because they're the one person they can relate and make the character more believable I got harsh criticism for a few chapters leaning towards bias in a males perspective. So I"m going back to the drawing board and gutting out what's not needed, going back to my original writing material. The ultimate question you should ask yourself why any reader should care about your MC.
     
  19. Kingwood Kid

    Kingwood Kid Member

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    I'm mostly done with a short story revolving around the romantic relationship between two characters. One is female, but the narrator's gender isn't ever specified. It's interesting how writing in the first person allows you to use I/me/my, while the third person pretty much requires you to choose she/her/hers vs he/him/his, given the general tin-eared nature of it/it/its.
     
  20. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Excellent point. Well, I think one can tell that there is a bit of a bias on my end towards a males perspective in my antiheroine. Not to say that she can't have a bit more of an aggressive mentality and violent way to solve her problems, but I see that in me...or maybe in her I should say. More than that though, I know who she is and how she would react to certain situations. I honestly believe the person I know her to be...for my audience...for my readers...they will truly care about her and sympathize for her throughout the story.
     
  21. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    I have a friend who writes books for a living and she has become quite a well-known author actually. I asked for her advice and she said when it comes to writing from a male vs. a female in First-Person perspective, she said there definitely is a difference. She didn't get into specifics because it was in an email and she's busy so I asked her for clarification but I would like to bring that up to here. She said a male has to worry about male-oriented things and a female character has to worry about female-oriented things....what she means by that I'm begging her to know. What are some things in that instance that only males would ever think about and things that females would ever think about?
     
  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    In what culture? In ours? Sure, I think there are things men would be much more likely to worry about - whether they're being "macho" or protective or fulfilling whatever other male stereotypes. And I think there are things women in our culture are much more likely to worry about - whether people think they're "bitches", or too "butch" or whatever else.

    Universally? I expect women are almost always going to be a bit more concerned with issues of reproduction. Not that men don't worry about it, too, but they don't have quite the same level of skin in the game. I think the exact nature of the concern will vary a lot from woman to woman - some may be concerned they can't reproduce, others that they will when they don't want to, or whatever. I'm not sure what universal concerns for men would be...
     
  23. SolZephyr

    SolZephyr Member Supporter

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    Periods. Periods are a pain in the ass. Most stories might not ever touch on it, but I guarantee that until science finds a way to stop periods, they will continue to be a thing that women worry about more than men.
     
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  24. 33percent

    33percent Active Member

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    Well with Harry Potter, I think is a great example. I give props J. K. Rowling writing the MC, Harry opposite gender of her but like I said we naturally make characters bias what we know best. I think Harry was straight up a beta male cardboard pansy. Did Rowling do that on purpose? maybe a reflection of her own personality just in a male body? who knows. If it wasn't for Voldemort I would've lost my interest a LONG time ago in the book series and I rooted for the guy. He was the only character that made the story interesting but of course plot armor for Harry, Voldemort always had his plans screwed up by some teenager.

    I didn't really care for Harry at all, just because he didn't feel real to me half of the time and he was BORING. Hell, people made fun of the HP for being the third wheel for 8 years. Like seriously, you're the badass that stopped the ultimate badass in the wizarding world. Ron getting with Hermione made no sense. Especially the scene where Harry and Hermione dancing in some tent alone that would of been perfect for a happy ending. Nope, Harry gets with Ron's younger sister who was totally an irrelevant character.
     
  25. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Excellent points. Makes us think a little bit. Yes, seems like men generally are the ones about being physically strong and protective and females are perhaps watchful of being nice and sweet and not bitches.

    Now would you say readers in our culture would view a female main character who does not want to reproduce and not marry as a character readers would not be interested in reading? Not that she makes it adamantly clear in the story but not a part of who she is. I think readers will get the idea that she isn’t really family-oriented just by what she talks about inside her head (as it’s a First-Person story). My antiheroine is this type of person...she is very career-focused, all about making a name for herself, and focused on taking care of herself and select others around her. I know, not your typical character and may be a bit unusual. I am not going to change who she is because that’s who she is, I know her inside and out. Just would like to hear what others would think about that. A character that betrays stereotypes...when I created her I didn’t intentionally make her to be that way...just who she is. She wants to be the Last of her Line.
     

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