1. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    Swearing in Fiction

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Cazzara, Aug 8, 2018.

    Hello all! I've been floating around this forum for a long time now and then and have seen some incredible valuable feedback from some of you.

    Forgive me if this has been a topic of conversation multiple times before (which I'm sure it will have) but I thought it would be interesting to see what others think about using swearing when it befits a character.

    I am almost at the end of writing my dark comedy and I can clock in a swear count rather high. I attempt to defend this to myself, as my main character is a struggling millennial caught in a world she perceives to be unfixable, and therefore has a very black and white attitude.

    1) Do you think this turns readers off from books as a whole, through overuse, misplacement or other means?
    2) How much do you think is tolerable?
    2.5) What words could push it too far?
    3) Does it even matter/should those uncomfortable with bad language just not bother reading further anyhow?

    Would love to hear people's thoughts on this!

    Thank you.
     
  2. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I think swear words need to be limited to maintain their effect. Just because someone in real life swears a lot doesn't mean a character should. I think reading it in a story has a different effect than hearing the same words in real life. Sometimes, sure, why not? But in general there are probably better ways to write what you're trying to say than drop a bunch of F-bombs. As a reader, I don't mind seeing it occasionally, but if overdone, I'm going to wonder why the writer doesn't have a better vocabulary. Shock value wears off quick, and then all you're left with is some dirty words.
     
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  3. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    If it’s in the narrative, I think it should be limited. If it’s a character—what kind of character are you creating? If it’s a character who swears constantly, then have them swear constantly. That is going to give the character a bit of a ridiculous feel, but if that’s what you want, OK. I don’t think it’ll turn off most readers unless handled clumsily.
     
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  4. Zerotonin

    Zerotonin Serotonin machine broke

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    Hi there, and welcome! Your avatar is absolutely delightful if I'm seeing it correctly and it is who I think it is (Buffy, I'm assuming).

    1) It doesn't turn me off, but I do understand how some may see it as a bit of a turn-off. Then again, if it's used for characterization, I don't see any problems. If one of the characteristics of your character is that they swear a lot, and it adds at least a little bit to the story as a whole, go for it!

    2) Hard question to answer without seeing what you're writing.

    2.5) That also depends on some factors. If your intended audience is adult, not much need be off the table. However, there are certain words that are more accepted/shunned depending on where you live. For example, the word "cunt" is a pretty offensive word here in the U.S. However, I've talked to many people from Europe and Australia and, there, the word is more of just a normal slang term. Just have to be considerate of your audience for this one.

    3) There are millions of reasons someone may choose to not continue reading a book. The writing, characters, plot, hell, sometimes even a misplaced comma or misspelled word. In the grand scheme of things, you just have to think about it this way: Those who want to read your work will read it, and those who don't, won't.
     
  5. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I think you have to limit it to a certain degree, but it also depends on your characters. There are some things that would push even the Pope to swear, so why should characters be any different? Although, if I were writing YA, I wouldn't use anything harsher than crap and bloodyhell.

    It's difficult to know which of your readers will be offended by bad language, but there are ways you can insert bad language feeling into the story without actually typing the word 'fuck'. (or whichever word your character wants to use) so only you can decide if you are going to use bad language or not.

    I do have a character who swears - not often but it's there, and I have another character who drops the odd curse but never in front of his wife (except for one occasion but that's understandable at the time). And the only time my female character swears is once during sex, and once during childbirth - although it is in another language.

    Personally, I hate the C**T word (I can't even bring myself to type it) and yes, I have given up on a book series half way through because that word appeared, but I know a million other people carried on reading that series.

    So, it's up to you!

    Good Luck!
     
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  6. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    I would only be concerned about the publishers, to be honest.

    I don't really trust people who don't swear and/or are offended by it. (And I'm quite fond of the word cunt - which I have no problems typing out)

    I don't think people who read dark comedies are the kind who disagree with swearing, but I might be prejudiced.

    That gets us back to the publishers. It's they who decide what gets out there and it's their standard you must meet.

    If self publishing - just go fucking nuts about it!
     
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  7. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    @deadrats Thank you for that, I'll take it into consideration. I've always been a more firm believer in disregarding limitations and writing down on page what is needed, and then the drafting process sorts out the iffy bits! I do have a lot coming from specific characters, so I'll trim down when the time comes and see how to re-phrase where appropriate. That's true, I think it's hard to balance between genuine shock moments that utilise swearing for the scene purpose and droning on as a whole with them throughout the narrative. I can see that might get tedious for some and be like "here we go again" ...

    @Steerpike I do believe it befits the character I created and it is set in stone from the start as to the type of person she is, and what the reader can expect. However, I do see your point and it is a concern of mine that certain characters might seem silly going around swearing at things some people might not. Would you say good character development would aid to alleviate this?

    @Zerotonin Thank you! It is indeed. Holds a special place in what gave me the spur to get into writing a long time ago, but I'll leave those stories at the doorstep. Great information there, I do think there needs to be some "taming" to an extent, as I don't want characters to come off cartoonish. But it is a characteristic, so for now, I think I'll most certainly go for it! I might post a chapter or so when I deem it worthy haha. I'm from the UK so I guess we do share the same outlook, though I've known a lot of people uncomfortable with "cunt" over here too, though this is used very sparingly, six times within ninety-thousand words (if that can be considered to be "sparingly"). I will definitely consider my audience for this one though. I watch a lot of American TV and worked in the film industry for a while, and I remember one person telling me there was a limit on certain words per episodes/seasons overseas, and dependant upon the network. I know I've deviated from the topic of prose to scripts, apologies for that, though it would seem there is a line somewhere that is restricted to location and demographic for sure. And yes, you're absolutely right on that, there are many things that might make readers look the other way, all part of the journey I suppose.

    Thank you so much for your insights so far, it's definitely food for thought!
     
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  8. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    @cutecat22 Yeah, I guess there is no real way of knowing for sure once the material is out there, it's for readers who like it to continue or not. I will without a doubt take each swear under scrutiny when it comes to the drafting process, see if it really needs to be there. I'm not too afraid of scaring off readers with taboo language due to the nature of the genre and the narrative as a whole, but I wouldn't want to do so without caring somewhat about what's on the page for the readers sake. Thank you for sharing that though, I guess a lot of this does come down to what story you are telling and who would be most inclined to read it.

    @Lemie That's very valuable, thank you. I'm not near that stage yet, but that is the goal come the end, if not the self-publishing route I go. I would hate to be censored and restricted, though I can understand certain things get in the way of selling a product. I thought the same about the genre to be honest. I'm sure people who want to see terrible people doing terrible things wouldn't mind what comes with those shenanigans.
     
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  9. Lemie

    Lemie Contributor Contributor

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    ETA: I messed up the coding... thanks phone...

    As long as it's interesting and/or well written I don't care who says what in it. That said I don't think it can be well written if the swearing "takes over", but that rings true for most things. You can't have too much description, dialog or boring Inbetweeners either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You ought to check out contemporary YA fiction. The authors certainly don't limit their language :D
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Strong character development can help with it. I think the more prevalent the swearing the more you have to fight against a caricature with good development. If you read SF at all, in the Expanse series of books, UN Secretary General Chrisjen Avasarala swears far more than any other character in the books, and her choice of wording runs the entire gamut of possible swear words. But the seriousness with which the character is written, and the depth of the character, prevents it from coming across as silly. Instead, she's one of the most powerful and serious characters in the books. Of course, she doesn't swear with every other word. But she does do a lot of it.
     
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  12. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    I haven't read the books but the show is on my never-ending list of watches. If I have the time, I'll try give them a read before I do! I'll probably like her then :p That's good to know, thank you for shedding some light on that. If you have any more recommendations of similar characters, please do let me know. I'd love to get a good ground going into the draft stages. For now, I'll do plentiful research to prepare for the rigorous process.
     
  13. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    That's why I said if I (me) were writing it. When I think of YA, I think of 14 year old and upwards.
     
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  14. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I find it strange that I can swear like a trooper every day, using nearly every swear you can think of, except that one c word.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Even though it is young "adult," I think the age range is generally described as 12-18. I suppose parents are still involved in what their child reads at those ages, at least in many cases. My parents let me read whatever I wanted from any age, so by the time I was 12 or 13 I was reading mostly adult novels, some of which had decidedly adult content. My kids tended to stay more in the YA genre during those years, though I didn't require them to read only YA.
     
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  16. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I never remember looking in a YA section. I loved to read but would sift through most things. I loved the Adrian Mole diaries, and then read Jackie Collins' 'Lucky' at 16, a year after I started writing.
     
  17. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's important to acknowledge, along with all of the rest of the wonderful advice in this thread, that there are readers out there who will immediately scorn work with swear words in it, even if by rational standards it's not gratuitous. I see that shit on Goodreads all the time. "The book was great, but there's no reason to swear in fiction." It comes down to 1) your vision for your work, 2) risk vs reward, and 3) understanding that no matter what you do, someone will take issue with it.

    I think swears can be cheap, and I'm wont to include gratuitous profanity, but it usually winds up pared down after a few edits/critiques.
     
  18. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    @cutecat22 I think the "c" word just has the harshest sound going, it can really be stressed more so than others :superlaugh:

    I haven't read a lot of YA fiction, I was more in the same boat as Steerpike, reading adult novels around that age, though I'll check some out to see how they differ!
     
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  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I'm not really sure why I have such an aversion to it. I love the word twat. You can really spit that one out. Although I also love cockwomble and knobjockey. And of course, fuck.
     
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  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I've read a lot more YA as an adult than I ever did as a kid (when I read virtually none). There is a lot of good YA literature out there.
     
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  21. Cazzara

    Cazzara New Member

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    Absolutely! You can never please everyone, so sometimes the best option is to stick to your vision and just bite the bullet, hope for the best.

    It's quite annoying to see this on there, I've noticed it a fair bit myself. I'm not going to rant haha. I'm all for swearing in general to be honest, just a form of expression like many other things, and I think it brings a certain "adult" confirmation to a narrative that helps specific genres. But the overuse is what worries me, the fine line between how much is too much?

    Following all the advice in this thread though, every piece has been of tremendous help and I'll be sure to utilise it all. If anyone has anymore, keep it coming :)
     
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  22. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I read a book once by a lady that thought that the word Fuck, had to be on every bloody page.
    So I would say choose your words and apply them appropriately. I don't have a problem with
    swearing, hell I use it loads in my first novel and in my in prog sequel. Of course it is a Mil-Sci-fi
    so there is going to be a fair bit of harsh language.

    Overall I think it is fine, so long as you use it where it applies.
     
  23. Irina Samarskaya

    Irina Samarskaya Senior Member

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    If the main character is Tony McFuckingTana and he has a tendency to fucking say "Fuck" every other fucking word, then it makes fucking natural sense for him to fucking say fuck as if he had fucking Tourette's Syndrome. Fuck!

    ... That is to say, as a reader, I do not care if there is cursing. It just ought to make sense. Like trashy people, gangsters, the enraged, individuals with very poor impulse control, a comedian, etc.

    There's all kinds of reasons why someone might curse IRL and should the story be attempting to be realistic, then cursing is inevitable (unless the story is in a place where cursing is unthinkable, or there are no literal curse-words in the language/culture).
     
  24. Linz

    Linz Active Member

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    I'd say the only way to know if there's too much swearing in the novel, is to subject it to beta readers and ask their opinions. If the majority of beta readers come back and comment on the storyline, suggest a few edits, etc, you're probably fine.

    If they confuse the plot with the amount of swearing involved . . You might want to cut down on it a bit. ;)
     
  25. rincewind31

    rincewind31 Active Member

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    Swear words are fine but I'd limit them. You're not going to lose readers with too few obscenities, but you are if you use too many. Plus it's not really necessary. A few well placed swear words can say so much more about your character than having them swear every other sentence.

    Unless they suffer from Tourettes. If that's the case you can bollocking fuck right off.

    Bollocks.
     
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