1. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    Western and Eastern Culture Comparison on Virtues: Social Conduct /Sex/ Love and Courting

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Xboxlover, Aug 18, 2018.

    I'm writing a book and I am currently on chapter seven. Its about an eastern and western culture meeting for the first time. Its set in fantasy and has elements of romance.

    I am trying to write a virtuous and moral prince (based on Chinese culture) and I am wondering what the differences are from eastern and western virtues - morality, ethics, and most of all romance, sex appeal, nudity (immodest clothing), and sex.

    There is a lot of information out there that I have been reading through but there is so much that isn't covered. Like for example public nudity is okay at bath houses but what about how a person wears their clothing in public? Anime and TV shows show a lot of girls with their cleavage hanging out and I am under the impression that this is just fan service and Asian culture is very respectful about their clothing. (Japanese obi tied in front is offensive and usually refers to prostitution.) What would happen if a an ancient Asian culture saw an immodestly dressed woman whether or not in their own culture or not? So like take a barbarian woman who's legs are showing due to her armor choice? Would they call her names, smite her, reform her? Not care?

    How would close encounters between western and eastern men and women go? I want to depict an eastern man falling for a western woman (I know this wouldn't happen in ancient real life times but its fantasy), eastern men and women falling for each other and western - you get the point. I have multiple characters. I have read a lot on courting and dating differences.

    I'm trying to remove myself from christian views and stay objective on this so I can understand virtue in another culture. I want to build a chaste prince but chastity is a double standard?
     
  2. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Eastern and western culture aren't really so cut and dry. You have to get into who the characters are as individuals and then figure out how they interact. The time period matters.

    For example, tell me which of the following counts as western culture: Christianity, Marxism, Rationalism, Capitalism, Honor Culture, Face Culture, or Greek philosophy?

    I know how those things seem to break down on the surface, but would we have Greek philosophy if Islamic scholars didn't save it for us? Marx was a westerner. Honor culture exists in the America south, in schools, in prisons, and in any area where people don't rely on the law for safety. How about "face culture?" It is often associated with China, but "losing face" is a western cliche, and we have a lot of the same feelings about face in America as they do in China. Is Christianity eastern or western? I mean, it came from the middle east and some of the biggest congregations in the world are in east Asia.

    Even if we just focus on the "western" noble, what is his culture? Is he Christian? Does he think Christianity is for the dumb masses and he's into alchemy and mysticism? Has he discarded all of that for a purely mechanical worldview, and does doing that make him feel liberated or depressed or both?

    This is something to look out for:

     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  3. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

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    Agreed you need to get way, way more specific. Even narrowing it down to just "China" gives you thousands of years of civilization to wade through.

    Alternatively, since it's fantasy, can't you just make it up?

    I get the appeal of wanting to base a fantasy culture off a real one. I do that, myself. But I'd caution you against doing it if it's a culture you already feel you don't understand well. That seems risky, like you might end up writing shallow stereotypes. For example: if you want a solid understanding of how men and women interact in traditional Chinese culture, you need an understanding of Confucianism, and if you want to avoid Orientalist stereotypes about Confucianism, you need to commit to some more nuanced reading on the subject. In other words, how much research are you willing to do on this to get it accurate? Because the other option is to just make up your own cultures, and decide how and why they view romance and nudity and so forth. And there ain't nothing wrong with that. It's fun! You're not writing historical fiction here, so why not get creative?
     
  4. CoyoteKing

    CoyoteKing Good Boi Contributor

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    I agree with what both Dragon Turtle and John Calligan said. Your question is a little too broad.

    If you need inspiration, I think you should try looking at a specific time period in a specific country instead of just saying "Eastern culture." You're talking about ancient China, but then you mention stuff like modern anime and Japanese obi. Alternatively, y'know, it is fantasy, and you can do what you want.

    You've lost me here. If she's wearing armor, shouldn't she be more covered than the average women?
     
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  5. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    Sorry not that it matters Eastern Noble Western Warrior. I get what you are saying and I have been doing a shit ton of research and plan on doing more. I'm trying to get help so I can be pointed in a more clear direction. I probably should have been a bit more honest as well here I'm not doing an alt earth here. I am making up my own fantasy cultures but I want to take a look at real cultures and have some questions about them so I can better create my ideas. I'm just using the terms eastern and western because its easier for people to follow. I have read online that when you create cultures base on earth cultures that you don't just want to pick and choose like a buffet and that doing so risks breaking suspension of disbelief or even offending people. The thing here though is I want to look at it in a broad way so that I don't miss out on potentially creating a fun Asianesque culture. As for western culture in my story there is a lot of them based on Roman, Greek, Midieval Europe on a whole steering away from the modern here.


    I am, but I want to look at other cultures and expand on some ideas I am having. So whats wrong with mixing in a bit of real world elements into it?
    Like I said to the guy before you, I have no issue with research and have done a ton and plan on doing more. A lot of good books have had crap tons of research in order to put them together well and make them believable.
    I have my own cultures as well but I like the appeal of adding in some real world cultures or their elements.

    I've been looking at all the dynasty's mostly the Han period. I've been reading about how ancient China was a power unto itself and how it effected the way the surrounding cultures developed. Like China influences Japan and Korea more than a lot of people know.

    Its fantasy... Does she need to wear realistic armor? Common have some fun and revive the 80's babes a bit lol XD
     
  6. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    So tropes exist for a reason and I know that they can hurt or offend people but they work for a reason. What she just described in the first 45 seconds is WHY franchises like Skyrim (elder scrolls) or LOTR and all of these fantasies are popular and sell very well. You can't escape tropes. We know deep down races are more complex than that but simplification for the stories sake is important too. I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with creating your own or putting a twist on old and making something new, but it doesn't have to be lazy. And this ultimately why I turned to a forum so I could put the effort and research in appropriately. Civilization is more than a few cultural ideals, fashion, architecture, and race. There is medicine, infrastructure, laws, religions... etc.. you get my point. Factions. Not everyone follows the same thing or believes what their culture has taught them you always have counter cultures. I hope you did not assume that I was soley copy pasting races and cultures. I want to take a look at specifics in the Asian cultures because I want to be able to take some ideas and develop them.

    Yeah not planning on contextualizing the character... I have a lot of the world building going on aside from characters.

    I decided I F888ing hate forums. They never help. It always seems no matter what I say or try to ask people assume I'm doing something, I'm not doing something, or people go outside and away from the question I am asking. I just want to learn something on virtue between western and eastern cultures. What's more prevalent that kind of thing. Our culture doesn't find tank tops immodest but don't walk into the middle east around a bunch of Muslim's you'd insult them with your nudity. That's where I'm talking. What are the similarities/differences in modesty and virtue? Its a large topic yes but in the grand scheme of what I am actually doing is quite a small topic in my world building.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Emphasis below is mine:

    It sounds like you’re trying to explore other cultures without in any way questioning your own views, and that strikes me as problematic. You’re using “respectful” and “immodest” as if there’s agreement on what those mean, but there isn’t.

    Edited to add: also, your thread title says “social conduct/sex/love/courting” but you seem to be only talking about nudity and standards of dress. The level of skin that a person shows doesn’t necessarily have anything at all to do with social conduct, sex, love, or courting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
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  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    “Fantasy” doesn’t mean “doesn’t have to make any sense.” As a genre, it doesn’t mean “wish fulfillment.” It refers to things that don’t exist, but those things usually need to have an internal logic.

    Armor should protect the wearer from injury. That’s its purpose. To protect the wearer from injury, it probably needs to cover much of the wearer.
     
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  9. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    Q
    Quite the reverse actually I'm trying to take an objective stance and learn about similarities and differences. I'm trying to set aside my bias. I'm obviously sucky at posting my questions because every time I do on this dang site people hop my shit misunderstanding where I'm going. I was just talking to my husband about this subject this morning and removing the bias. Comparing how we used to dress in layers like the eastern cultures and how our sense of modesty comes from the influence of Christianity versus like say China where it may have come from a political leader or a philosopher based on cultural demands of wealth, social status. etc where there may not be a concept of insert differing topic here.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that the word “modesty” serves you badly alone. I’d suggest that you always force yourself to expand it—example, “immodest by 18th century upper class British standards”—or eliminate it altogether—example, “clothing that covers the torso but leaves the neck and most of both arms and legs bare”.
     
  11. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    Sorry I have to drop the armor topic, I'm a fan of 80's heavy metal ladies and there is no changing my mind on this one. I love both realistic and fantasy sets of armors. I understand the function, and suspension of disbelieving doesn't take a hit because someone wears less if you do it right. For me this is one of those topics where people just need creativity and to have fun once in a while and stop trying to slap on whatever disagreement they have with it. There are people that like it and those that hate it. Its a take it or leave it. It's not about wish-fulfillment so much as it is about making an ode to my favorite cliche/trope.
     
  12. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    I agree I just don't have a word for it. Limited here on what word usage I have.
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Skin-baring, form-fitting, revealing, etc. are all both more informative and less judgmental/culture-specific, IMO.
     
  14. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    Well of coarse terms like that but I'm taking straight from the research pov where being practical and simple here, how does each culture dictate whats modest/immodest/inappropriate etc..
     
  15. Xboxlover

    Xboxlover Senior Member

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    This isn't really helping me at all I'm just going to go back to doing my own independent research. Thank you anyway.
     
  16. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I'm sure you are trying your best to write a book people will like, and to articulate your questions in a clear way. The confusion off the bat is that "eastern" and "western" don't have any meaning without looking at a certain time, place, and individual. No one knows what "western culture" even is, and we live in it (judging by the language you are typing in, I could be wrong), let alone "eastern culture."

    Take Ancient Greece for example: a nearly naked woman walks through the Agora and tells an armed soldier how she feels about his politics. He doesn't know her. How does that go over?

    Well, it makes a big difference if we are talking about Sparta, Athens, or Thebes, right? Let alone class, citizenship, and family. "A Greek man would respond like so." "Greek" in this context doesn't describe or mean anything. Using place names like "Europe" or "Asia" conveys even less information.

    So, my point is that I think you are on the right track, and you may even know what people are telling you already, but when discussing culture, time, sex, and place you have to be really specific in order to have clean communication about it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I’m suggesting that clarity in your attempt to have that discussion is likely to make that discussion more feasible. Your post above is the first time that I’m really clear on what you want.
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    The Wikipedia page “history of nudity” looks like a possible starting point for that part of the question:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity
     

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