1. DarkShade

    DarkShade New Member

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    Plot Idea

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by DarkShade, Oct 14, 2018.

    I'm thinking of including an idea similar to the Knights of the Round Table, but with five to seven people that act like the last line of defense for their king. All of them will each have different reasons for following the main character, but from what I don't know is what types of reasons would a knight have for following a similar purpose. I am also thinking of adding other types of people into the knights of the round table like thieves, archers, monster humans, elves, and so on. Would thieves and other fantasy races have different motives than a knight does who serves a king?
     
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  2. Irina Samarskaya

    Irina Samarskaya Senior Member

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    Definitely. However, I have a difficult time imagining policemen (knights) and criminals (thieves) getting along and being tolerated together near the highest level of authority.

    As a rule, historically, the reason why knights were a thing at all was because wealthy people needed to defend their wealth from barbarians after the fall of the Roman Empire (and thus the end of state policing). The first knights were essentially relatives of wealthy people who could afford to not only dedicate themselves to martial arts but also wear the best gear of the era (plus ride a horse, a very big bonus/expense) and the first post-Roman kings were essentially those wealthy people that managed to secure the loyalty of other wealthy people (or barbarians who managed to secure the financial/martial backing of the wealthy people) and the reasons for these unions varied greatly depending on the individuals, their beliefs, morals, and lack thereof.

    Charlemagne, for example, inherited a feudal state that he turned into the first Christian Empire, and dedicated the latter half of his life to restoring the educational, medical, and logistical standards of the Roman world as well as protecting the infant Church. His most famous knights, the Paladins, were semi-legendary heroes who fought off Muslims who pursued a defeated Charlemagne in Arab-occupied Iberia, and most concepts of chivalry were based on the idea of the moral hero who was willing to die for his beliefs and fellow Christians.

    Therefore, even in a fantasy setting, if it's to be based on reality, it makes sense for the would-be knights to either come from wealthy backgrounds and have moral reasons for supporting their king/Hero OR to come from the commoners but prove themselves martially worthy of knighthood (which effectively meant the king or other high noble giving a piece of their land/income to the would-be knight and possibly even marrying them into their family).

    Adding monsters, demi-humans, thieves (not sure if they're criminals in this context), etc. would beg a lot of questions. Perhaps they're all of the same religion and the hero is a virtuous man and so their differences are overcome by their common moral values. Otherwise it's very strange as loyal circles of knights were generally forged by either common interests (like mutual self-defense) or common values (like the defense of the Christians or commons). Why would an Orc, for example, wish to swear himself and all his descendants to a Human petty king? A good reason might be a combination of friendship and common values (like the Orc might be an outcast or expat or something).

    I think you can make a fantasy-diverse group work while being grounded and realistic, but you'll have to study the history of chivalry, knighthood, and what inspired the legends of Arthur, Charlemagne, and Barbarossa (who are essentially the Big Three of Western/Central European chivalry. It's somewhat different in Eastern Europe, but I assume the culture you're going for is largely English or Frankish).
     
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  3. J.D. Ray

    J.D. Ray Member Supporter Contributor

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    Consider looking to non-European archetypes for your fantasy setting. For instance, read the fictionalized stories featuring the historical hero Miyamoto Musashi, a ronin in feudal Japan. The stories are from a singular perspective for the most part, that of Musashi, who (at least in the stories) went from a teenager thrown into battle as an army foot soldier, where he nearly died, to a wandering sword master challenging those he thought of as false Samurai to duels (and besting them with his wooden practice sword). Along the way, he meets and engages with a broad variety of characters. You can, perhaps, find some tropes to harvest.

    In many Eastern stories (though I'm not particularly familiar with a large catalog of them), the lines between character types aren't quite as starkly drawn as they are in Western stories. I think this has to do with a cultural difference that seems to start in Arabia and continue East. Also, probably closer to your prototype, look to J.R.R. Tolkien (wasn't Bilbo a thief with good intentions? What motivates him to help Thorin and his people?) and R.A. Salvatore (what were the motivations for Drizzt Do'Urden? How did they compare to that of Bruenor?).
     
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  4. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    Well, Irina said almost everything that can be said about knights, the only thing I have to add to her lengthy post is:

    When talking about chivalry, I think you need to be aware that the modern idea of the concept is heavily influenced by things like Hollywood, several medieval novels and even the Arthurian legend but, contrary to popular belief there was no such thing as a chivalry code. The word chivalry comes from chevalier (french) and translates to knight, so a more accurate use of the word chivalry would be referring to "things that knights do" and knights do... whatever their lord tells them to do, mostly protecting the lord and going to war (also, as far as I know, they were mounted shock troopers).

    With that out of the way, I find it curious that you want to add monsters and thieves to the knights, I find no problem with elves and half-breeds but this two... I don't know, you would need a hefty explanation to pull it off, especially the thief (the monster could be explained via world building, similar to how the newly released anime "Merc Storia" explains how monsters and humans are capable of living together in peace).

    Thieves would probably have different reasons unless the kingdom is in a severe crisis, as for the "other fantasy races", well... it depends, are they segregated by kingdoms or do they live together under the same ruler??? If they live in different kingdoms then yes, they would need different reasons to serve under a different kingdom (or you can just use life debts, you know, the typical "you saved my life, I will follow your every command").

    Also, when you say that they are "the last line of defense", what exactly do you mean???

    P.S: I don't know anything about your WIP, but if you're going to have a major battle, please for the love of God, don't do the Hollywood thing and give everyone a sword, they are sidearms (like pistols), use proper battlefield weapons (greatswords, polearms and spears) and if you want a knight to die by a sword, use half-swording or murder strokes, or, even better, ditch the idea and use a mace or a war hammer.
     
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  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    When you say thieves do you really mean "people who violate the law and steal things" or is it more, "people who have skills in sneakiness and subterfuge and sleight of hand"?
     
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  6. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well there were chivalric codes around knightly orders and certain ideals that spread around what being a knight was supposed to be like. Both of which mostly trace back to the House of Valois in France but can be found in English knights among other examples.

    And I have to agree with most of the responses here in being a little unclear here on what OP means or what the goal here is. Especially without other context of the story.
     
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  7. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    Well, yeah sure, there were some behaviors expected of a knight, my point was that historically the existence of a list with an X number of bullet points that every knight had to follow is false, probably should have clarified that, thanks for pointing it out.
     
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  8. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Specific orders might have their own specific "x number of bullter points" too.
     
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  9. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    Maybe, but then we're talking about variables and we would be speculating so... I'm not going to bother with that, we could debate ideas for an eternity and a half after all.
     
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  10. Bobby Burrows

    Bobby Burrows Banned Contributor

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    Let's see, the court Jester is the ancestor of Stand Up Comedians, and I believe they gave a feudalistic King's bad news in such a way as to not alarm the masses, I think, IDK.
    Then you would have portrait artists who drew pictures of the king slaying dragons for propaganda purposes, and tapestries too. Maybe before portraits were drawn just so the Kingdom knew what the King looked like.
    King, Knights, you want 7 of them, so, IDK, Knights Templar.

    I think Winchester was the capital of England at one point because of King Arthur who was after the Romans and William The Conqueror who made England in 1066 couldn't conquer London so London predates England and William the Conqueror moved the capital from Winchester to London and set up camp and built The Tower of London on the walls of this Roman London.

    https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/Winchester-Ancient-Capital-of-England/
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  11. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Winchester was also the wealthiest diocese, both internally and in salary to the bishop, for most of the middle ages and early modern period.
    Anyway, yeah, jesters is a good comparative point.
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    You do realize they are not real people but invented characters, right? And being invented means that their creator - you, the author - can put any motivation in their heads. Like, any whatsoever. ;)
     
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  13. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    A constant refrain in today's publishing world is "It's like X, but..." Examples: Clueless is like Jane Austen's Emma, but set in Beverly Hills. West Side Story is like Romeo and Juliet, but set in Hell's Kitchen. Into the Woods is a collection of well-known fairy tales, except everything goes wrong.
     
  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    A few questions to ask yourself, @DarkShade -

    Is yours a good king (kind to his subjects), a bad king (selfish and cruel), an indifferent king (would rather be playing golf), a weak king (blows whichever way the wind does,) warlike king, a peaceful king? (Each 'kind' of king would probably welcome different kinds of protectors.)

    Does the king inherit these people? In other words, did they serve his father (presuming this is an inherited monarchy) as well as himself? Does this cause problems? Or does he pick them himself, like a prime minister or president picks a cabinet?

    Are they 'landed' gentry? In other words, do they have family and property at stake? (This was quite common in days of yore ...the overlord gave his underlings land, in exchange for service.)

    How much say does the king have over these people? Do they control HIM? (That can certainly happen, because a king all by himself is generally fairly vulnerable. So 'nobles' can certainly make demands of a weak king.)

    It sounds as if you are writing fantasy, which means you can go in any direction you want. But I would advise you to do research on actual kings/protectors, etc. Truth is always stranger than fiction, and you might get some incredible ideas. As others have cautioned, remember the 'knights of the round table' are a fictional construction. You might have more fun if you check out what kind of protection real kings have had.
     
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  15. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I think they should all have different motives whatever race they belong too. They can all have the same goal but a different motive.
    One knight wants to protect the king because the King showed kindness and belief in him when no one else would give him a chance because of his past. Maybe the Elven King wants to keep the King on the throne because he gets most of his wealth from trade with that King. Try to vary the motivations. That's the only help I can really offer.
     
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  16. Alexander Arthur Tennysom

    Alexander Arthur Tennysom New Member

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    Monster humans might want equality and good relations with the king. Some races may want independence or new peaceful relations. The criminals and thugs may want to take advantage of the king by robbing him of spoils or getting freedom to overrun weaker people. Others may want to work their way up the ranks and eventually challenge the king for the throne. Some may want future help in endeavours they're interested in(this could be anything from financial support for their people or fighting their wars).
     

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