How do you like a Story to start?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by John Anaszewicz, Sep 21, 2018.

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  1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    No, still putting the finishing touches on the final version. But lots of people have read it, and given feedback, which really helped me a lot.

    I do hope, however, that if you encounter a book with a prologue, and decide to read the book, that you will also read the prologue. The author has included it for a reason, and it's part of the story as they are telling it. You wouldn't want people to automatically skip Chapter One, would you? It amounts to the same thing. (And I've certainly read some Chapter Ones that made me put the book down and never pick it up again.)

    Not everybody is going to write an excellent prologue. But not everybody is going to write an excellent Chapter One either. I'd say that if the prologue is boring, by all means stop reading it. But don't skip it because it MIGHT be boring. That's the mistake, really.
     
  2. DueNorth

    DueNorth Senior Member

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    I would not NOT read a book because it had a prologue. That would be silly, and unfair to the author. Since I read almost all books on an e-reader these days, I download a sample, and probably end up proceeding with about 10% of those I sample. Not only must the story grab me, but the writing must be good. I know from query letters that the first ten (doubled-spaced, 12 pt font) pages better be damn good. That is all most agents will see. Frankly, I’m often dumbfounded how some of these books get published.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I always at least skim the prologue, but I usually regret the time wasted. :) The prologue of A Game of Thrones, for example, I regard to be (1) boring and (2) a harmful spoiler.
     
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  4. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Interesting. I can't remember ever liking a book and disliking its prologue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    At least you skim it. I presume that means you start reading it, and when it gets boring you start skimming. That's fair enough.

    I do that with any chapter anywhere in the book that loses my interest. I don't make up my mind ahead of time what that chapter is going to be, however. It could happen at any time.

    I don't remember the Game of Thrones prologue in particular, but I must have liked it—because I don't skip prologues, and initially I liked the series a lot. The series lost my interest around the end of the third book, and that's when I stopped reading it. I got very fed up investing in so many characters who got killed off, and the whole thing began to run on like a rambling soap opera rather than a focused novel series. Now that it's still—apparently—rambling on, and Martin STILL hasn't finished it, I'm really glad I quit when I did. (I think I had already bought the fourth book, which was as far as the series went at the time, but I never finished it. They were all eventually taken to the charity shop.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I read all of the first book, and I may have read all of the second one. Then I bought a nearly-free Kindle of the first five books, which allowed me to search for my favorite characters. (Arya way at the top, Tyrion below her, and then Brienne well below them. I mostly ignore the others.) Then I searched YouTube for the TV version and watched the scenes of Arya, and Tyrion, and Brienne, and the Hound. It's all made me realize that I really don't care that much about a continuous plotline.
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I started doing that as well. But then my favourite characters started getting killed off. And replaced with other characters, whom I then had to get invested in, and then THEY got killed off. And I quit. In my opinion, killing Eddard was a master stroke that set everything in motion. The umpteen deaths that followed? Not so much. I realised, after a while, that I didn't give a damn who ended up surviving. That's when I quit.
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But, Arya! Who really cares about anyone but Arya?
     
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  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I guess by the time I quit reading, I assumed she was going to be killed off as well. Couldn't watch. Didn't want to watch.
     
  10. Vandor76

    Vandor76 Senior Member

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    That is exactly why I love this series. Not because I like to see my favourite characters die, but because this is what real life is.
    A villain's "badassness" is often shown by allowing him to kill a large number of people, including women, children and persons who are important for the MC, but not characters who are important for the reader. This makes the villain a bit weightless in my eyes. Killing a relatable character makes him more of a serious opponent for the MC and also makes me hate the villain more than anyone before and brings me great joy when he is finally defeated.
    I have seen videos on Youtube that show pub guests watching GoT on the big screen and reacting to a bad guy's death with an ovation that can only be compared to their favourite football team winning the Super Bowl / World Championship. Making a villain that serious has a price, unfortunately.

    I felt the opposite: I started to take care, because up to that moment it was straightforward that the Starks are the good guys so they will survive and win at the end. This is still an option for the surviving members of the house but if they do, winning after being on the floor is a much greater value and satisfaction than seeing Robb Stark bravely marching towards victory, slaughtering his enemies on his way.
     
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  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, I can see your point, and I think that's why I continued reading for three books. It seemed meaningful, at least at first. And I think killing Eddard was a real plot-changer. However, it all got to be too much. Not so much the killing, but the feeling that Martin didn't really know what he was doing. He'd kill one, introduce another, and etc. I'm still not sure he knows where he is going with this ...and he still hasn't finished the story—and the series has already lapped him. Now he'll either deviate from the series (creating huge problems for the fans) or be playing catch-up with the writing.

    It did begin to feel like a particularly violent (as opposed to gritty and realistic) soap opera, and I lost interest. If your character is dead, then you no longer have to wonder about what to do with him/her, do you? And then they started coming BACK from the dead, so I am given to understand ...erm, no. Not for me.
     
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  12. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    That's not my experience at all. I didn't need Red or Andy to die in The Shawshank
    Redemption
    to increase the "badassness" or villainy of Captain Hadley or Warden Norton. Andy and Red both survived and it was still incredibly satisfying to see Hadley and Norton get their just deserts.

    I can cite so many other examples. Hannibal Lecter didn't kill Clarice, and I'd argue in terms of who's a badass, Dr. Lecter takes a backseat to no one.
     
  13. Vandor76

    Vandor76 Senior Member

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    @jannert :
    I'm not reading the books. It was a decision based on fear that after I started to watch the show it will be very different from the book (some says they are). After 7 series I can tell you that the story slowly became clear and the large number of threads start to join together. I don't know if it is Martin or the show runners but until now it seems like everything is well planned (with a very few exceptions).

    @Bone2pick :
    I agree with you on the examples you gave but both are movies/books with a limited cast and a plot where the most important things are not the villains but the relationship between the MCs. Yes, Hannibal Lecter is a badass but he is not the villain in Silence of the lambs as he is helping Clarice to find the serial killer (they are not opponents as it is clearly indicated in the very last scene)
    What I was trying to explain is that the best villain does harm that YOU, the reader take personal and want revenge for it. Let's say you need to relate (negatively) to the villain as well. Showing that he is bad is enough to hate him, but to bring this hate to the next level things should get personal.
     
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  14. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    That's why I my book is in parts... the Slow, world and lore building that I enjoy is in the prologue and Part I, but if you must get to the action and don't care about any of the setup then please proceed to Part II. :p . LOL. You just may not know whom some of the characters are. Why this sword is important.

    So, in spirit of this thread. I enjoy slow starts and that is usually how my books are...some take a while before getting to the "fun" parts. (Fun being subjective). As I said lore and world building. So it's no surprise my books start out this way. I have one book where there is no action persay... but deals more with the mental health of the MC and how those around him cope and help him.
     
  15. John-Wayne

    John-Wayne Madman Extradinor Contributor

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    Oh... Oops! Go ahead and skip to Part II please. :p . LOL.

    Hmmmm.... Not sure. :p


    "How about the First Part.... but again Part II for the rest. :p
     
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  16. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    My mistake then. I thought you were claiming that the most satisfying villain deaths/defeats can only happen if the villain kills one of the main characters. Which I wanted to push back against.

    One of the most satisfying villain deaths I've ever experienced was Count Rugen's in The Princess Bride. He didn't kill any of the main characters, but I was much more satisfied with his death than any character in GOT.

     
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  17. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I like to begin with a conflict or problem. I usually like to link it too my main problem even if only slightly. Something important to the character that offered them a choice. If that choice had never been offered then my story wouldn't have happened. I like to write about people's choices and the repercussions of those choices. You could write too different stories almost based on what the character decides to do.
     
  18. The Italian Viking

    The Italian Viking New Member

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    In the book I am working on I have an assassin killing a target simply to demonstrate how the character thinks when it comes to problem solving and unexpected problems with the hit. While the main story is set in Florence , Italy we first see our assassin killing a target in the Niger Delta, where you can’t set up a sniper’s nest and must rely on mangrove forests exposing the assassin to return fire. I also add an interior monologue to suggest that my assassin does possess a moral compass. This allows me to get right into an action sequence without waiting for lengthy plot development which occurs later in the book.I don’t want to allow the reader to walk away from my story.
     
  19. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    What about telling a prologue in 3rd person omniscient (set in an early time than the bulk of the story) when the story is written in first person?
     
  20. John Anaszewicz

    John Anaszewicz Member

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    Yeah, that was what I was thinking of. The main element of the world would be given in a sort of "flashback" (think of Fullmetal Alchemist 2003) in the beginning, then jump to the present where we get to the main character's point of view.
    Then later loop back to that prologue when appropriate for the character(s) to learn about it. Some other characters down the line will be aware of that information already, but most others aren't, and live their lives normally.
     
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  21. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    Here is an example of something I just wrote:

    Castelen stalked along the ramparts, amber eyes aglow with zealous anticipation at the prospect of witnessing the clash of the Monoliths against the battalion if Gorn Vaul Knights, and the battery of Gorn Vaul Cannons. These camps below, in distances yonder, grew into a bruised hew of burgundy and lilac like a cloud of tainting amethyst, as their ruddy fires mixed with the onset of the coming tide of this Gloaming Dawn - the sparse specks of crystal-blue fluidly coalescing within the Gloaming firmament, forming glaring beacons of seething blue light. Castelen, head tilted back, wattles flush, brimmed with pride at the thought of seeing the monstrous constructs in action under the coming sight of a bright array of Gloaming Suns. Castelen predicted as much from the scrying and knew the strong Gloaming presence would add power to the towering beings as well as present them in full, fearsome glory to the armies standing in opposition to this great cause; this great victory in the making, never to be forgotten, to be a mark upon the world like nothing other since the Great Cataclysm of millenia long ago.

    The point of writing this is to set an important scene in my head, to establish how this scene has come about what will happen afterwards and to start to delve into the character presented here.

    This is kind of a cheat in a way because I have a preclnstructed/growing world within which this scene is based. I understand the history and what is going to lead on frmo this - to some extent.

    Generally I start writing at a point I find interesting and then write at another point I find interesting. Sometimes these threads take on a life of their own and insist to be written in a particular style too. Whether or not I discard the sketch above is unimportant. What is important is that I am fleshing out my ideas and thoughts, playing with literary techniques and tools, and letting the creative juices flow as best I can.

    Personally I find it very hard to start a story at the start. Sometimes what I write works as a good starting position and sometimes it doesn’t. More often than not I either add to or cut away from my initial attempts if I don’t remove them completely - I will say that this is much more the case right now because I’m doing something ambitious stylistically (ambitious fo rme at least!)
     
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  22. John Anaszewicz

    John Anaszewicz Member

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    Yeah, that's what I want to do (obviously caught between stress and schoolwork, so writing has been sparse but imagination keeps going strong) and I want to establish the world in an interesting way (either create a sense of mystery or pulls you in from the first sentence) that would want you to find out more, and when the main character(soon characters) come into the picture it keeps things moving at a nice pace without feeling too slow or too quickly (can't remember the name of the book, but one part has the narrator describing the sun for a lengthy portion).

    So far I've come up with a good name for the main character that rolls off the tongue as has a nice ring to it, a good companion character that has "street smart" knowledge, and then a couple future characters that will help during portions of their adventures and a couple that will be recurring, those main few with some good depth and growth to them that I hope readers will like.
     
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  23. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    See but I really didn't find that. There's plenty of characters like Jon, Tyrion, Daenyrs, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cersei and Jaimie that were in the first book all the way to Dance with Dragons. That's plenty of staying investment. The only one who matches Ned Stark as an MC death is the Red Wedding, which is still only two central characters one of which doesn't actually have any POV in the books. How did you lose investment so easily?
     
  24. Caveriver

    Caveriver Active Member

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    I am thinking this is the way I am going to go, but I am a tad hung up on the first lines. I put so much thought into the first line of Chapter 1, now that I am thinking of putting in a prologue (with characters who are NOT the MC, but who the MC will encounter later on in the story), I feel another, equally affective hook, since this will now be the beginning.
     
  25. John Anaszewicz

    John Anaszewicz Member

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    Depends on when the prologue happens. If it happens many years before the "beginning" of the story, then you could still start chapter 1 the same way, just with that snippet of exposition from the prologue.
    The way I see it, in some cases, you can start with the prologue because it jumps into a scene with little explanation, and (with how I'm doing it, it'll end at a cliffhanger-ish point) then jump into where I want the story to begin.
     

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