Problem with Killing a Character

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GirlWriter101, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Four against one with swords you'd be slaughtered … you impale the first attacker with your sword and the other three cut you to pieces before you can pull it out again

    Also even if for some reason they don't just mob him and beat him to the ground, swords are heavy, so four on one they'd just take turns to wear him down. However skillful he is he's doomed.

    Most fights would've been over very quickly - the sort of prolonged swords set piece is a Hollywood construct.

    Your only hope of victory would be to fight on a staircase where the limited confines stop them getting at you more than one at once, and the spiral is deliberately built to benefit the defender, even then the chances of him losing are high
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  2. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    to be fair the young adult genre is replete with unlikely tales of teenagers taking on adults and winning - assassins are common, as are government agents, and kids combatting criminals … according to google there are 226 medieval YA books on good reads - a fair number of them probably feature teenage knights who kill bad guys with every cut.

    So its not unknown to have a teenage protagonist fighting as this wonderful warrior - the audience suspends disbelief because they are too young to know any better themselves. (and since Girl writer is 15 she may fall into this category herself)

    On the other hand if the this is supposed to be Adult fiction then I'd be with Chicken - its hugely unrealistic
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  3. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    It's very common on the WF for contributors to be rather too literal in their understanding.

    Of course you can write - '

    after an extensive period of training, well-equipped, all details I have supplied in previous chapters, well-nourished, and utilising an excellent reconnaissance method couched in a sophisticated network of spies and espionage, re-supply & reinforcement, the army was victorious against the forces of rebellion, and the princess was happy to accept the proposal of Captain Fairweather THE END.'

    But history AND also fiction especially does not always - that way roll. That's the interesting part. How old was Joan of Arc in her armour? And outnumbered men in sword fights do get lucky...
     
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  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Outside of Hollywood not often - and certainly not four times, unless luck comes in the shape of rescue
     
  5. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    But that's the point.

    'How on earth can D'Artagnan escape from this conundrum? I must turn the page.'
     
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  6. GirlWriter101

    GirlWriter101 Banned

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    Song of the Lioness, The Icemark Chronicles and Eragon. (I am leaving out the rest of the Inheritance Cycle because of magic)
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, sure, young adults fighting and winning is common. But a "knight" is a very specific thing.

    Arya isn't wearing armor and swinging a broadsword; the suspension of disbelief comes from her being fast and sneaky and that whole "water dancer" thing. Buffy has the whole Chosen One thing, and she is, again, fast and sneaky and fast and fast. You can be very persuasive about speed and skill.

    But knights, unless we're using a totally different definition of "knight", aren't about speed.

    I haven't read them. They had adolescents in full armor, fighting with broadswords, defeating armored adults fighting with broadswords?
     
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  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    ...Oh look he's been rescued by Porthos, Athos and whatever the other one was called.
     
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  9. GirlWriter101

    GirlWriter101 Banned

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    Yes they do.
     
  10. GirlWriter101

    GirlWriter101 Banned

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    ?
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Well, if your book is purely YA, and not intended to be very serious, you might get away with it. However, that seems to make questions about plausibility pretty much beside the point.
     
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  12. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    So two out of three of those are YA or younger (possibly three out of three I've not come across the icemark chronicles) As I said YA fiction doesn't require realism on the point of teenagers vs adults, because the whole point of the genre is teenagers as heroes
     
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  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The 3 musketeers (or 4 musketeers depending) - D'artangan wasn't often alone against the bad guys because of all for one and one for all, so when he got into a sticky situation going mano et mano with half the cardinal's guard you could rely on Athos, Porthos and Aramis turning up to rescue him.
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    On your original point - Its not likely he'd chose to be brutally dismembered by an enemy swordsman when he could just open his veins in hot water
     
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  15. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I made this quick video for @Moose

     
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  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    you'll note hes talking about one on two … one on four is a different thing (You'll also note that he said the same thing as I did initially, fighting multiple opponents your best bet is to use environment to your benefit - ie not doing it in the middle of a castle hall. ) Also he's talking about sparring, if you are fencing you don't have to worry about getting your sword lodged between an oponents ribs (also you aren't fighting people who are really trying to hurt you in a real fight they won't be letting him come back to the centre each time) and lastly they are fighting with modern sabres not medieval swords
     
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  17. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    it was rubbish, the next one I watched was better..

    points noted :)
     
  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Its not any more inherently unlikely than teenage secret agents or teenagers in the SAS
     
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  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It feels more unlikely to me, I suppose because it seems to directly violate the laws of physics.
     
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  20. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    With YA fiction, just because the audience is young, doesn't mean they care far more about wish fulfillment than realism. I certainly didn't, even when I was only 14.
    I know there is a good amount of YA fiction with teenagers saving the world, but there are various ways of making it work
    1. childish and fantastical in tone (i.e. not really supposed to be realistic)
    2. relies on various exceptional circumstances, often destiny, special items and/or special powers
    3. downplays how skilled the heroes actually are, it's not about a story about a great hero, at least not at first
    4. has the characters go through a long training process by the very end of which they are also more of an adult
    And often a combination of these.
    Those that don't do any of these things, suffer for it. It's not like it's particularly hard to find shoddy YA fiction.

    A common rule with these kind of young hero stories, is that the young heroes are recognised for their inexperience. They are treated as naturally talented, but not professional. Often this is where additional magical destiny powers come in. Your Eragon example, uses of all of my exceptions to some extent, particularly 1 and 2. Eragon is not recognised as a skilled hero, he is regarded as a chosen one and a talent.
     
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  21. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    We don't even need to look at fiction to find this. At 16, Baldwin IV shattered Saladin's army at Montgisard and was in the thickest part of the fighting (while suffering from an advancing case of leprosy to boot). And Edward the Black Prince was personally involved in combat throughout the Crécy campaign, especially at Caen and the Battle of Crécy itself, when he was 16. For medieval nobility, at least, the 14-16 age range was considered the dawn of adulthood.

    OP might be stretching combat skill beyond what's plausible for even an adult (4v1 is really bad odds unless there's a large skill or equipment gap), but the mere existence of accomplished adolescent knights (and similar combatants) is a matter of historical fact. And if it happened irl, I see no reason why it couldn't happen in fiction.

    Turning to the OP's question, if you're set on his death being in battle, making suicide extremely taboo in this culture would cover the "why wait for a battle instead of doing it himself?" angle.
     
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  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But was he one of the very best fighters? A full-size highly accomplished adult would be quite likely to lose to this sixteen year old in single combat? I know that kings are out there swinging swords in movies, but did it really work that way?

    Edited to add: Y'know...this sort of crushes all that "Of course women can't be the equal of men in battle! They're small!" underfoot...
     
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  23. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Baldwin's up in the air; we know he actually fought in battle itself, but that's about it, and after Montgisard his leprosy grew worse until he couldn't campaign in person. He was at least competent, though. His survival attests to that much.

    The Black Prince, on the other hand, was regarded as an exceptional combatant and model knight, and that reputation started right after the Crécy campaign.

    I wouldn't say a full-sized adult of the same class would be quite likely to lose to somebody like this, but the adolescent would at least stand a chance of winning. And he could probably beat peasant conscripts and the like without too much trouble, as they weren't as fit or well trained and had inferior arms and armor.
     
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  24. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I think the 16 year old thing is possible to some extent, but it does stretch credulity. Especially with a fighting style like the knight which require a good deal of strength to wield large weapons while wearing heavy armour. And it requires years of horse riding experience to do "well". Also, if this is anything like real medieval war, knighthood is restricted society of the elite. And the elite preferred not to include people so young. They would make you wait through various paging and squiring until you were experienced enough to be considered a real knight. 16 year old on a battlefield were more likely to be assistants to defend others who would do the most dangerous stuff, or cannon-fodder. European nobility were all about relationships and you cultivated the relationships with knightly superiors before you could be included amongst them. Especially if we're talking the height of chivalry under the House of Valois in France. During the Hundred Years War even members of the royal house itself could expect to wait till their twenties or even late thirties before they would be appointed to knighthood because these were the OG chivalry guys and knighthood was literally sacred. So much so that arguably they lost the Battle of Agincourt because of their attachment to such strict honour as opposed to a bunch of commoners English longbowmen, some of whom were actually press-ganged criminals or mercenaries. Now. does that sound likely to include someone younger than 16 early enough for them to be considered a good knight by the time they're at 16? How young did this guy start paging? 8? Was he a squire at 12? Who's this guy's dad; the Holy Roman Emperor and his wife the Queen of France, with his godfather the Pope and his grandmother the Holy freaking Mary?
    I would suggest 18 or 20 is more plausible will still capturing the "young soldier" feel. Henry VII and George Stanley were in their early twenty at the Battle of Bosworth, and Richard III had started fighting with his brother Edward around 20. Sir Edward Woodville, Lord Scales was probably around 16-18 in 1572 when he saw his *first* battle and he was knighted afterwards.
    Anyyyway, I would probably suggest the in-battle death, but depending on circumstances he may prefer poison. He sounds like more of a "taking you with me" type though.
     
  25. GirlWriter101

    GirlWriter101 Banned

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    Rowen is the youngest of Lord Charles of RosePool's three sons, and the only one who is an active knight. Both his older brothers have been knighted, but ether are unable to act as a knight or have no interest in fighting. Rowen was 8 when his life clasped after the tournament at HazelPond. After that he was sent to StormMountain to act a a page to it's lord. He spent the next 6 years at StormMountain training. I think it is worth mentioning that Rowen can't joust, he was never trained to, most of his skill is with the sword. That is what makes him stand out, war is not a common in Casolin, so most knights spend a lot of time fighting in tournaments, which are a lot of jousting. Rowen's skill with a sword is far better then that of anyone else his age, because he has had the time to conintrat on the sword, and nothing else. He was 15 when he was knighted, and that was because he saved the lives of both princes and Anders of StoneWall, the son of the kings best friend. Anders was also the knight Rowen was the squire of. (I am not sure this is the background you wanted... If you have any more questions, or feedback let me know.)
     
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