1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Novel Chapter causing problems? Consider getting rid of it....

    Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by jannert, Oct 20, 2018.

    The tricks I learn, as an old dog.

    I've had this happen a few times, but the principle has finally gelled.

    Do you have a chapter ...any chapter ...that you find yourself writing and rewriting, ad infinitum ...and it still never seems quite right? You've been tinkering for ages, and it's still a problem?

    Consider getting rid of it altogether. The problem MAY be that it's just not needed. Think about what your story would be like if you just removed it.

    Horrors! But ...wait ...just maybe....

    Can you just write around it somehow? If the whole thing contains one or two tidbits of important information, can you squeeze them in someplace else? If you can, this can be a huge relief. As I just discovered. Again. Just because something 'happens' to your characters, doesn't mean it HAS to be included in real story time. Sometimes it's enough to just reference it later on.

    Of course don't actually delete the offending chapter. You might decide later to restore it, or parts of it. But remove it from your WIP and store it elsewhere for now, and see what you've got. It might just make a huge difference to how your story flows.

    This can apply to troublesome scenes as well. They aren't working? Consider dumping them, rather than rewriting them.
     
  2. LazyBear

    LazyBear Banned

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    I probably have the opposite problem of always throwing whole chapters when they can be rescued, even if it's just to see if I can do better. I threw away a whole book and content worth 20 chapters to produce 7 finished chapters. It's a lot easier to keep the story's pace and mood if I can stay on one path in my head.
     
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  3. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It can be so liberating to trim the fat. It sucks a little to have to cut things out, but when you can see it improve the story it's awesome. These things aren't aways easy to spot. It can be hard when it's our own writing getting in the way of our story. But these sort of changes can make all the difference.
     
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  4. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Yep, I can personally attest to the principle of the thing. If something doesn't sit right even after two or three attempts at it, in my own writings it is an indicator that there's a problem either with realism (which means that I don't really understand what I'm writing), or with the storyline. Which doesn't necessarily equate with cutting, but usually means a complete rewrite.
     
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  5. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Or maybe it isn't the chapter but the story direction. I find usually when I get stuck, it's rarely the actual scene or chapter but more about where it's leading, which means almost always the problem started in a previous event that led down this road. For example, I wrote in this attack in my book that led on to 2 more chapters of events and then I got stuck - it wasn't the chapter that's the problem but the attack. It just should never have happened. As soon as someone told me he didn't even like the attack and that it wasn't my strongest writing and in his opinion I should just delete it, I became unstuck and could actually finish the novel.

    The attack was thrown in through the famous motto of: "When things get boring, throw in a smoking gun" or as my friend says, "Throw in ninjas."

    If you ask me? Bad advice if ever there was any. It really doesn't work for everyone - and if you're like me who needs to know the general direction of where things are going, throwing in a curveball like this can grind the whole thing to a halt rather than give you momentum. It'll give you momentum for a short time because whatever smoking gun you throw in is bound to spawn two or three logical events, but tying that in to the novel as a whole when it was a complete curveball isn't easy, nor always doable, and may just result in a lot of wasted work, as you must delete everything caused by and affected by that curveball.
     
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  6. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    It's just that when I revise and revise and revise and it's still not right ...I've discovered that oftentimes what's needed ISN'T revision, but elimination. I don't think you should be too quick to dump stuff, but it's always worth asking yourself IF you could dump it. If you did, what would that do to the story? It's funny how things that seemed necessary when you wrote them sometimes aren't.
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I totally agree with this. Throwing yet some other googly into the mix isn't always the answer. I suppose it can be, at times, but I wouldn't do it when things are boring. Boring requires a different approach, in my opinion. A change of direction may sound appealing, but it can lead you away from the purpose of your story.

    It's when you can't figure out the purpose of your story that a 'smoking gun' might be a good remedy. It will change the focus, for sure.
     
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  8. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Totally agree. Once you have enough to keep the reader happy you can get rid of everything else.

    Even if it means compromising your original vision.
     
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  9. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    I've had this experience when I've made a change in a different chapter that was clearly an improvement, but caused problems elsewhere in the work. And, yes, the correct answer is sometimes to just cut it. One of the reasons I think I'm improving as a writer is that I am finding this easier to do over time.

    Another good indicator that something has to either change or be tossed is if, when reading over in revision, I skip it. Major red flag. Because if I find it dull, a reader will. too.
     
  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, that as well. I think I spent far too much time trying to change these bits, when really, they can go. I don't think it's so much that I become fond of these passages, but that they become solidified and I couldn't see the story without them. It's distance (time out) that gave me the perspective to eliminate these. I know that the time it takes to create this sort of eureka moment delays publication, but I think the tradeoff is well worth it.
     
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  11. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    This I can't agree with.

    If your vision of the story you want to tell changed? Sure. Cut and slash to your heart's content.
    If the original vision still stands? Nope, because then it would be important to the story you want to tell. You might have to rework, though, because there's a reason you're having doubts about a specific scene/chapter and you need to find out why.
     
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  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I think sometimes it's just a case of "I can't see any other way of doing this" because, often, if we're honest, we haven't thought of other ways of doing this. And the way we've done it was the most obvious way to do it, but not necessarily the best way. But cutting it and still telling what we wanted to tell would actually mean way more work than just rewriting - it means restructuring! Learning to come at the same scene from a different angle or from a different character POV or at a different point in a dialogue. But it often also means losing some parts you loved. The combo of hard work, reaching for a new solution you hadn't thought of, that wasn't obvious, and killing your darlings prevent you from trying to see if you can do something differently. Because often when we're editing, we're thinking of how we can keep most of what we already have, and it prevents us from cutting.

    And I hadn't thought of using the smoking gun as a way of inspiring new ideas if you're not sure of the vision of your story, but it's a good point. So I guess it's better used near the beginning of a novel. In my case, I tried it near the end - don't do it!

    Also agree with @EdFromNY - if the author is bored, then without a question the part needs to be either rewritten or cut, probably cut! We are our work's biggest fans and if we don't wanna read it, there's no hope that anyone else would! (reluctance to reread the same thing for the umpteenth time and sheer exhaustion from editing are different things, of course. Which is why distance is important)
     
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  13. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

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  14. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Subconscious meaning is well and good - sounds like themes that emerge as you write and what you do is, you go back and flesh them out and sharpen them up and bring them to the fore. You do not actually want anything that's way too subconscious really, because chances are your readers will not make the same conclusions or assumptions as you. If a scene is there, whether the theme is overt or implied, you as the author needs to know that's why it's there and that's the meaning you're trying to communicate. And then you need to run it through betas to see if you've succeeded - having multiple different interpretation isn't a problem. You don't necessarily need all of them to see the same point you're driving. But it shouldn't be way off mark from the themes or related themes of the overall novel, and it shouldn't be confusing, and it shouldn't be so hidden that no one notices :)
     
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  15. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

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  16. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I guess it depends on how abstract and literary you get. I'm not into the whole "It means whatever you want it to mean" that's popular these days in modern art. If something really can mean whatever you want it to, then it ceases to have any meaning at all. Great that you personally feel you took something away from it, but it wouldn't be any genius on the part of the artist. Of course to the one who took meaning away from it, it is still meaningful to them, but then I cannot appreciate the artist or the work because it's through no insight or skill on their part. Nor am I personally interested in creating such meaningless work - meaningless to me. Because in the end, I write because I love writing and I love the story I wanna tell. I hope others will love it too and find meaning in it, but the first reader, always, will be me.

    Not everything has to have meaning, of course. But I think we're starting to confuse meaning and purpose. A scene should drive characterisation or plot, or preferably both - there should always be purpose to every single scene. This cannot be refuted if you intend to write a good book. But deeper existential meaning? Depends on the book. Lee Child and Harry Potter don't need it, but something like I dunno, 1984 clearly has it. They're very different books and they fulfill the purpose of their story. That of Lee Child's and Potter's would be entertainment, and 1984 would be a critique on society and politics and to make people question.

    If the purpose of your story is to express everything can mean whatever you damn well please, that's a fine thing to express too, and your writing may encompass the theme. So it all depends.
     
  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    This especially is true, for me, anyway. My first impulse is to polish what I've written, not throw what I've written away. Not because I feel it's perfect prose or that I love it too much (the opposite, actually) but because it feels necessary to the story. So it needs to be reworded, rejigged, placed somewhere else, etc. And I can waste a lot of time and effort attempting to do this.

    It's a relief to finally realise that hey, it's actually NOT necessary to the story at all! Problem solved.
     
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  18. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I have been fortunate so far, and only have to make minor alterations to existing chunks.
    At least I don't have anything that will be cut on a page size scale yet, which is good.
    I hope I don't run into any of the pitfalls of having a bit I have to go over and redo a whole
    lot. Though I still have about 30ish K to go, so who knows. :p
     
  19. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

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  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Eh...I don’t know that I agree. The scene has to give the reader something, but...
     
  21. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    @Carriage Return - sure, a scene may have meaning the author wasn't consciously aware of, but as I said, then it would be on no part of the author's skill or genius of mind, and I simply wouldn't be interested in crafting such a thing. Such a thing could not be crafted consciously to begin with, so the whole discussion is moot. As I said, if someone finds meanings in it that was unintended that somehow helps them along the way in life - brilliant. But the discussion is neither here nor there.

    @ChickenFreak - well, I'm talking about an edited, polished novel. If there was anything that'd been unintentionally implied that you see on editing it, the usual protocol would be, assuming you like what was implied, to sharpen it up so it can be seen clearly by readers. This is how I understood it when Stephen King talked about editing and how the story is like discovering a skeleton in the ground - you put many things in there that you're not always consciously aware of and then on rereading, you see the running threads and themes, and now you get to go back and brush off more of the dust and let the bone really emerge.

    If you don't know why a scene is there or what it communicates, chances are you should delete it.

    But I'm not saying everything needs to be consciously thought through on the first draft. On the first draft, just write and have fun, honestly. If you're not sure why a scene is there but it was kinda cool and it helps you along your story (until you get stuck - then you need to ask if that's the scene that caused the problems), then just keep on writing. You can work this scene into the larger themes/plot later in the novel.

    But I don't know that a polished, ready for publishing novel should ever have a scene where the author scratches his head and goes, "Why, I've no idea why it's there. But isn't it a fun scene eh?" (on the other hand, if the author could say, "Yes, it's there for pure laughs and it works in the overall tone/structure of the novel", then fine - but then, it would be a case of the author knowing that's why it's there)

    Having explained this, I'm curious, what makes you not sure?
     
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  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. I agree with this. My OP about dumping troublesome chapters concerned perfecting an edited story, not a first draft. I'm a big believer in pushing onward to get a first draft finished. I definitely do NOT believe it's a good idea to get hung up on a particular chapter, etc, while you're still writing the story. If something doesn't seem right, make a note of it in your head—incorporate any changes you know you're going to make—but just keep going.

    So many of the 'problems' we encounter from writers here on the forum have to do with unfinished works. In fact, many of the problems are about works that haven't yet made it past the outline/planning stage. My worry is that if you get stuck at that stage and don't move on from circling the 'problem', the story won't ever get written.

    I am not talking about experienced and prolific authors, by the way. I suspect people who can write and finish and publish several novels per year probably don't make a lot of mistakes that involve a major rewrite. That's what practice gets you. However, I do worry that many people think if they only get the 'bones' right the first time that they won't have to do any editing other than proofreading and formatting. I'm afraid that really isn't the way it happens for most first-time authors.

    Don't be afraid of doing massive editing or making big story changes, by the way. It can be fun. Because then you KNOW you have actually written a novel, you can get feedback on it—and can see it for what it is. And nothing you learn or do at this point will be 'wasted effort.' What can be wasted effort is spending a lot of time working on solving problems when you don't actually know what the problems are.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    My issue is with what I took as a sort of demand for precision--which may not be what you meant.

    You said

    I agree that a scene has to earn its keep. It may do A and B and C and Q and R and P, and it may echo back to Z and imply Y, and eighteen months later you may look at it again and see six more things.

    Maybe the difference is that you're saying "that's the meaning you're trying to communicate", which sounds like you've got it nailed down all nice and precise and you've scrubbed away anything that doesn't have an excuse for being there.
     
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  24. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I guess it's a bit of a balance - it's probably a case of a good edit and over-edit. You don't wanna cut everything, including things that give your piece character and voice, which are created by word choice, sentence structure, and actually sometimes just additional sentences that may not be "necessary" to paint the picture per se, but is necessary for mood. But I guess ultimately, preferably, you'd know that's why that sentence is there, so you do still know.

    I think it gets hard because most engaging scenes are a buildup of sentences - how they all hang together - as opposed to a single sentence that has a single purpose. Knowing which lines add to your writing while not necessarily having an obvious, immediate function. In this sense, the attitude of "scrub away anything that doesn't have an excuse to be there" would be counter-productive. Writing is an art form and sometimes things are there because it looks pretty, and I think that's ok too, depending. You don't wanna rub the soul from it. You don't literally just want the skeleton.

    Anyway, all this is making me think how much tougher it must be to write a screenplay. When every page is a minute and you have only 120 minutes or less to convey everything from plot to characterisation to the writer and director's vision of the film, and every prop on the screen costs money...
     
  25. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

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