What @peachalulu said. I finished The Eagle and the Dragon in Oct 2015, after 20 years' working on it (550 pages, 240K words, a big book) and went through seven major revisions, one professional edit, and about 30-40 beta readers, some of whom were reading the last chapters as they came off my computer before it was finished. That and many, many minor revisions for SPaG, before I finally published in Feb 2017. And that is a LOT of editing for a book that size, but absolutely necessary. And despite it all, some still slipped through: @jannert caught my dolphins "doing slow roles next to the ship," a few months after it was out. And, most embarrassing, one of my characters in the second half of the book abruptly changed his name from Demosthenes to Diogenes for a few chapters, then back again. The book was out for a year before an eagle eye caught that blooper, while reviewing it for an award. I promptly and with red face uploaded a corrected copy to Amazon, and the girl who caught it wound up being my wife's editor.
Well, I have done some editing now and then on the draft just to convince myself that it would be possible to get to a reasonable good level in the end. I don't write in chronologically order (or any order at all to be honest) so most parts have been edited to eliminate discrepancies. The more I read your and the other answers I think I don't have enough faith that hard work, time and editing might solve it. Should have asked that question instead maybe. And twelwe rounds? Wow, did you have any left of the original draft?
[QUOTE And twelwe rounds? Wow, did you have any left of the original draft? ][/QUOTE] Oh yes. I usually work from a copy and pasted first draft to keep the things I like, rewrite the things I don't and chop the things that aren't working. I've been writing for a long time so sometimes it doesn't take that many drafts anymore. It depends on whether or not I managed what I wanted to include in my first draft and what the exact problems are. A dull character can be harder to fix sometimes than a plot problem. Ditto themes. My WIP actually started from scenes that weren't written in chronological order -- I pasted them together, wrote the inbetween bits and finished around September. Now I'm editing the book. It does take hard work to get to something you can be satisfied with but it is possible. I'd just keep writing and polishing and I'd maybe, if you haven't done it yet, start assembling your book into chronological order. I couldn't even think of editing before assembling the first draft. Also if this is your first book don't be so hard on it. I love my first book. Wouldn't win any awards but I love it.
I've just checked what is still on my writing shelf (I've just had a major book cull.) These are all how-to books that I still use. I have others as well, but they are for more specific kinds of books. These are the best (in my view) of the 'general purpose' books. The Writer's Digest Handbook of Novel Writing, 1992 ISBN 0-89879-507-9 The Complete Handbook of Novel Writing, 2002 ISBN 1-58297-160-9 The Novelist's Guide, Margret Geraghty, 1995 ISBN 0-7499-1653-2 (this one is the most inspirational one for me, and I still re-read it from time to time, just for fun) The 28 Biggest Writing Blunders (And How to Avoid Them), by William Noble, 1992 ISBN 0-89879-504-4 Rewriting: A Creative Approach to Writing Fiction, by David Michael Kaplan, 1998 ISBN 0-7136-4875-9 Self-Editing for Fiction Writers: How to Edit Yourself Into Print, by Renni Browne and Dave King ISBN 0-06-270061-8 Most of these are from the 1990s, but because they concentrate more on writing than marketing, they are still very very useful. You'll need to check out some more up-to-date ones for how to pitch books, categories, genre requirements, etc. But basic good writing is still basic good writing.
I see a lot of suggestions in the thread that you should read and practice writing. You should. But you'd be getting better at a snail's pace without feedback by a critique group or from experienced writers. It's taken me seven* years to take the story I believe is good and finish it (still needs a few more edits on the middle and end). When I started I did not know much about writing fiction but I believe anyone can learn. So that's what I set out to do. I've been going to a critique group every two weeks for those seven years. It's a good group, not all of them are. And critique from a forum can be confusing until you get good enough to recognize someone just telling you they like or don't like, they can see the setting in the description or not and so on, and, someone who is giving you good writing skills advice. After my critique group gives me feedback, I do more reading up on the advice they've given. And that's one way to know you are getting useful advice. The feedback is more useful if it explains the concepts of what is right and wrong and doesn't just offer edits and/or how they would have written it. From concepts you can do research in books on writing and online. Blogs are a good source for lessons just like how to books are. With description try Pinterest. Search for the scenes, fashions, weather: whatever you have in mind and use those to describe from. See if it helps. As for writing out of order, a lot of us do that. I wrote the chapters that were easier so stopping to get a harder chapter done didn't hold me up. And I can't write it right the first time. I envy people that can. But ifI put it down on the page, I can get it right from there. And it often takes me multiple passes to get to an editing end point. First chapters are hard, I changed my first chapter a dozen times. I'm having a similar issue with the ending. I may change it a few times before that final edit. *(I thought it was six but turned out to be seven.)
I diagrammed a couple of chapters from famous genre novels today and made a bunch of notes on things like how often characters took actions vs descriptions and exposition, places where one sentence did character, setting, and plot, how info dumps were hidden or paid for, how often they used concrete images, how often they move the character by describing things in other places and then having the character act on them. Shit like that. Then I started a story based on some random idea generators to practice what I learned. God willing I’ll post it in the workshop sometime soon.
First of all - it's good to know that I am not the only bad write. But like any art-form, practise makes perfect. I can say from my own experience in editing my first novel (not yet released) I have improved a lot between the first and last words of a 70k word manuscript. So the short answer is practise. Having said that - I now have to edit and revise a good amount of that manuscript before I am happy with it. But that is what we do as writers.
Wow, serious work! Did the result surprise you? My guess would be that there's more difference than similarities, but on the other hand generic stuff usually works. Hope to see that story soon!
Time to stop researching and write, sounds like anyway. Set yourself a goal, such as 1,000 words a day and stick to it. We will be thrilled to read it. Don't worry about being good at this point, just write.
I’m one of those people with too much pattern recognition who believes in conspiracies and sees faces in the rain, but I thought they were surprisingly similar. I mean, there is a lot of selection bias. I picked writers I want to be like. But they were so similar it startled me.
For me so far my growth as a writer has involved the cycle writing reading and feed back. And I would characterize the process of growth as a process of blindness to illumination. When I first write something I am blind to it, mostly to flaws but even to where it works, someone criticizes it and I become illuminated to something I diddnt see before, but this illumination crosses into how I read other works that I was previously blind to, and this illumination into the writing of others invests its self into further writing.
I think just the phrase "bad writer" is subjective but whatever stage or skill you are at there is always more to be learned and improved upon. I would suggesting reading (obviously) but be selective with who you choose to read. Read authors who are considered good. Maybe one author is very good at writing twist endings so try reading that person and see how they go about that art. There are tons of articles, youtube videos and podcast on writing available if you have the internet and then there is writing classes you can attend in person. There is material out there to help you improve. It's good to identify your weaknesses, like mine is spelling, grammar and punctuation.
Step one: stop being hard on yourself for not being a writing whiz the first time out. Step two: go get those skills you feel you’re lacking. Step three: get back at it. Learning to write is no different than learning any other skill. Talent only plays a part, a helpful part, but it’s not the whole thing. Talent just makes it easier for some folks to adopt and apply those skills than it is for others. No one ever handed a med student a scalpel and said just operate; no one ever handed over the keys to a semi and said just drive; no one ever stepped onto a stage and sang a flawless aria without first learning to sing; no one ever walked onto a baseball field, grabbed a bat and belted a home run without learning and refining that skill first. Expecting your first effort to be a masterwork is as unrealistic as expecting to write that masterwork without first mastering those skills. Take it easy on yourself, look at what you’re not happy with, learn how to do it better, and kick some ass.
Thanks for the advice! I think I have to get back and try to figure out exactly what's bother me. It's hard to pinpoint it, just a general feeling that I can't get the right feeling into words. Guess I'll have some work to do. That's a great plan B
One place to start- study rhetoric. Rhetoric is the art of persuasion; it’s not just what you say, but how you say it; the joining of what you say and what ‘they’ hear. Sometimes it’s not the words that are the issue, but how they’re presented. I promise, learning rhetoric will gift you more than a few Ah-ha moments.
You can make a plan for your work. but you must make it clear that when you continue to write a plan it can gradually change and this cannot be avoided. The main thing is to write as often as possible and it will undoubtedly be useful for you.
What is a bad writer? Does writing in incomplete sentences make you a bad writer? Does writing in multiple points of view points of view make a bad writer? Does writing non-conventially make you a bad writer. Not necessarily, I think, to all of the above.
Congratulations. Until you make this discovery, you aren't ready to learn the skills necessary to become a fair writer, then an acceptable writer, then a good writer, and eventually a publishable writer. Nobody, but nobody, skips the learning curve. And the first, most important part is not only discovering your writing isn't up to par, but also being able to see what is wrong with it. That is why critiquing is such an important part of this website. It trains your eye and mind to discern the flaws, and the strengths hidden behind those flaws. The hardest part is not getting discouraged, but if you stick with it, you will improve. And you won't stop improving as long as you keep your ego in check. When you stop learning, it's time to stop writing,
THIS!!! Some of the worst writers I've encountered (both on the printed page and in 'actuality') are writers who think their first drafts are untouchably wonderful and beyond petty criticism. Give me a writer with self-doubts any day. They are the ones who not only will improve, but who actually care about treating their readers to something good—not just showing off.
As others have remarked, if you keep on writing, you will improve. Actually, I admire your honesty with yourself - we can't all do that, you know. The question of 'Who is a good writer?' is pretty subjective. I've read books others have raved about, yet have fallen flat with me for some reason. I'd also like to say that when I read some of my earlier efforts from a few years ago, I literally cringe and feel myself blushing, hoping that no one is reading it, or even watching me read it. Keep bashing away at it and stay self critical.
There is a difference between bad writing and bad story telling. I'm starting to think that I just can't come up with a story that anyone else could relate to. I posted one on this board that is apparently absolutely stink-o by the reaction but I think it reads pretty well. I'm going to rework it from the ground and see what's what. If the problem is bad stories... it's hopeless.
I still really like your writing voice, based on Waldo. I think your progress may be a process of forcing more events per musing, repeat repeat repeat, until people stop complaining. But you can't lose the musing, because it's great.
