How to make a villain sympathetic?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by cosmic lights, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    And we historically regard this as a bad thing. Which was my point.
     
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  2. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I've never actually heard about that. But so many bad things came from WW2 it seemed as if the world went bloody mad.
     
  3. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    I thought we were talking about cultures that accepted the idea of murdering children? I must've gotten confused.
     
  4. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    With the Japanese example specifically, it's worth noting that they were killing Chinese children. A people that they regarded as racially inferior, to the point of being subhuman. Just like they had no problem engaging in mass rape or cannibalizing POWs (even when they weren't short of supplies) when it was non-Japanese on the receiving end.

    But if you look at Japanese propaganda when the Allies landed on Okinawa and an invasion of the Home Islands seemed imminent, it's full of "the Americans are going to kill the babies and rape the women and eat you!!!" type rhetoric. Textbook double standard.
     
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  5. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Or projection, a sort of a twisted Golden Rule.

    "If you conquer their country, what are you going to do? Yup, thought so, now do you think they'll do any different to you?"
     
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  6. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    They're safe because of the way movies/books most often portray fictional villains. These villains have style, aplomb, and are made to appear tragic.

    I read a lot of true crime novels, The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair That Changed America, Lost Girls: An Unsolved American Mystery, People Who Eat Darkness: The True Story of a Young Woman Who Vanished from the Streets of Tokyo--and the Evil That Swallowed Her Up, etc. The villains in these and other true stories will send a shiver up your spine. They're the real deal. Nothing, not one ounce of their being is in any way redeemable.

     
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  7. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I would say most real "villains" are also sympathetic and interesting in some way or another. Even people who are very morally repugnant can be relatable in a way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  8. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    And yet for every one of those I could dig up a real person--who'd be called a villain if they were fictional--who had style, charisma, an air of tragedy, etc.

    Art reflects life, and people like this have existed. I see no issue with fictional depictions of either sort of individual. Monotony in this particular aspect of story telling is both boring and unrealistic.
     
  9. Leo Flammarione

    Leo Flammarione New Member

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    We are talking about the readers accepting that idea: the OP would like them to sympathize with the character.

    But she was once a child of the cult too, right? And she's now out of it, doing something productive (to her eyes at least): maybe she could even decide to take proteges with her, survivors who could be able to help her in her mission.
     
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  10. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Many aren't "made to appear tragic." And now, in order to not back down from your position, you've conflated style with safe. Those two concepts have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Ted Bundy was described as charismatic, and I think it's fair to say he wasn't "safe."

    I don't care what you've read, imo you have a wanting perspective on which villains are worthy of investment. And if you feel Hannibal and Stansfield are safe, then I'd say you have a wanting definition of "safe" also.
     
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  11. Azuresun

    Azuresun Senior Member

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    I think that it's very common to have a fascination with being uncivilised or being outsiders in some form. Civilisation is something that for better and worse, is very constraining and we've all had times that we wish we could just opt out and do our own thing without needing to worry about the consequences. Villains with sympathetic or enviable traits let those urges be explored through a fictional proxy, with the reassurance that once they've had their fun, order will be restored.

    And for the sake of drama, you want to have some ambiguity to your villains, something more to them than an utterly unsympathetic obstacle to be swatted out the way. Or it can be an effective dramatic trick to lure your audience into thinking "well, maybe this guy has a point...." and then have them do something compltely beyond the pale. Of course, expect some of your audience to keep sympathising with them anyway.

    Hannibal Lecter is fascinating (at least before Harris started writing fanfic) because he's a monster, but there's something impressive about his unashamed admittance that he's a monster, and how he's still more cultured and classy than many of the other villains or even the "civilised" characters, who have a much more banal and petty kind of nastiness that the reader is much more likely to have had personal experience with. Lecter's attitude suggests that society is something that becomes optional once you're clever enough--that you can opt out and write your own rulebook on what is acceptable or not.
     
  12. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    LOL, very well put.
     
  13. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    Well, this isn't a solid idea that's written in stone I was just throwing possibilities out there.
    But my idea of a sympathetic Villain is not necessarily what other people in this discussion think of as sympathetic.
    I think of it more as, you understand what why they feel the way they do ever if you find it disgusting. I'm not looking to make my audience feel sorry for her and like her.
     
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  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    So more empathetic than sympathetic, I suppose. Most of the points I brought up in the beginning would still apply as possible ways to achieve that. If you can make the logic behind her views and actions clear, getting the audience to understand her shouldn't be too hard. Child killing will still probably be a stumbling block, though.
     
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  15. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I liked the silence of the lambs but Hannibal's ending was just weird.
     
  16. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    That's demonstrably false. Stansfield (my villain example) doesn't have a smidgen of moral ambiguity, yet he provides maximum drama and conflict. He's both utterly unsympathetic and wildly effective. Don't undestimate just how compelling a character can be if they can make the audience desperate for the protagonist(s) to "swat them out."
     
  17. Pandaking908

    Pandaking908 Member

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    Think about something in the world that you disagree with, and then try to think of a character that would go to far lengths to change that thing.
     
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