1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Artificial Gravity - or equivalent?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by BayView, Nov 16, 2018.

    I'm contemplating a story set in the not-that-distant future. Far enough that we have lots of space colonies within our solar system and maybe have even terraformed a planet or two, but not far enough that we've gotten into FTL travel, so we haven't actually had meaningful travel beyond the solar system.

    I'm currently working through the possibilities related to artificial gravity. I may just hand-wave it all, but I'd rather not, if I don't have to...

    Are there any reasonable alternatives to the "let's spin the spaceship" version of artificial gravity?

    I was thinking of something using magnets... maybe everyone wears carefully calibrated boots that are attracted to a magnetic floor, and frequently used items are also metallic and attracted to the floor. This wouldn't address the effects of zero-gravity on the human body, I don't think, but... what if it wasn't just boots but all clothing that was made of magnet-sensitive material, so there'd always be a pull toward the floor. What are the obstacles I'm not seeing?

    Alternatively, is there any way to make the human body responsive to magnets? I remember Xmen stuff about someone eating more iron and then having the iron ripped from his blood or something... might be best not to go that intense, but along those lines? Is there anything that works like a magnet but attracts something other than metals?

    Any ideas?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This could certainly functionally work, and is actually a pretty common feature (magnetic boots) of Sci-Fi stories that also don't wish to "spin the drum". But even if the clothing were magneto-sensitive, the internal concerns that microgravity cause for human physiology would still be in play. The suit would more correctly be pushing the body towards a given surface, and you would have to make it so that only a particular surface that is thought of as "down" would actually react to the suit, but regardless, the person's internal physiology would still be in a weightless state.

    Important to note, negative effects of microgravity are usually brushed aside in Sci-Fi stories. It's an understood part of the expected suspension of disbelief.
     
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  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm trying to create some quasi super-heroes who've been genetically modified to NOT suffer from all the standard challenges of space travel, so I don't want to brush them aside! They're a plot point! But I don't want them to be TOO big of a challenge...
     
  4. Artifacs

    Artifacs Senior Member

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    Artificial Gravity and no acceleration? That's a though one. My suggestion is that you get over it by some fresh-discovered Graviton Field or something. It will save you time to spend with other things.
     
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  5. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Something with enough mass to create the equivalent of the gravity we have now.
    For instance if we were to take all the material of Earth, and turn it into an
    exo-planet using that material, we would have a much larger amount of surface
    area while still maintain the same amount of mass.
    Pretty much the only way to create simulated gravity without spin, or using a
    large amount of mass, you have to 'magic' up a gravity generator, and put in
    at least a brief explanation for how it works. Star Trek might be able to explain
    how their artificial grav generator works.
    Magnetic boots don't mimic gravity, they just keep you from floating around in
    0-G environment. So you may have to settle on using centripetal force being the
    only way to create gravity on a ship scale.
     
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  6. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    Can you explain how a Graviton Field would work? I'm also looking for ways to produce artificial gravity on ships as well.
     
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  7. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    I would personally try to hand wave it with a bit of techno babble about dark energy and negative mass particles, but if I had to go hard sci-fi, I'd probably just have the ship doing a steady acceleration at a little less than Earth's gravity (depending on how far they're going) powered by a solar sail being driven by a high powered, ground/moon/orbital station based laser after they hit an initial cruising speed from traditional chemical based rockets.
     
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  8. Legolas

    Legolas Member

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    The ship doesn't spin but the rings around it do.... creating the gravity. the ship does not have to be in motion for this to work, as they spin independently with their own solar power source? they would have to have some sot of connection to the ship through magnets? the ship its self would then have its own gravity, almost like a space station if you wanted. space stations in sci-fi don't move but usually have a big outside ring that spins giving them gravity.[​IMG]
     
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  9. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    I think that up to date none of the brightest minds in NASA have even figured this one out. :p

    I'll try to come up with such a complicated gravitational theory that no one will feel the urge to dig deeper into it for the sake of making it realistic. (I assume that if ever we found a method to install gravity into a spaceship, it ought to be a complex one). So, here we go!

    We have invented a synthetic, highly radioactive compound out of uranium, plutonium, curium, technetium (you name it) in semi liquid form and inserted it in a kinetic generator, a complex piece of machinery, in the latest trend of quantum physics that produces technical gravity that can even be regulated through a master computer, either automatically or manually. (You can increase or even decrease the attraction towards it). Problem is that humans tend to die pretty fast in such a high radioactive environment, so we also invented a means to withstand it: Nanorobot shots that need to be inserted in the human body once every 6 days. There are two different sets of nanorobots in these cocktail shots. The nanorobots X are programmed to stabilize the radioactive isotopes that permeate the human body on the spot, thus neutralizing the radiation effects and the nanorobots Z that are programmed to cure any cancer cells that might be created in the human organism. (I think that if we ever found a way to terraform a planet, this would be pretty simple to figure out beforehand, of course through animal testing :p).

    You can also come up with a ventilation and technical climate system in the ship, since it's gonna need some cooling and a means of "purifying" the atmosphere and anybody that has been in the ship, before reaching onto land. There has to be an apparatus realistically speaking. Maybe a specific treatment they have to go through every time.

    To tell you the truth though, I agree with @Artifacs on this one. You would have to explain soooo much in order to confuse the reader and make it realistic that maybe it's not worth it.
     
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  10. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    A very interesting theory that's awfully complex. I think that advanced civilizations may actually just forgo the idea of having gravity on ships and embrace zero gravity instead. So they'd just alter their bodies to withstand the consequences of living in zero gravity for so long. But for my sci-fi world, it's the humans who need artificial gravity.

    Perhaps I could create some kind of mass generator? I mean, mass does create gravity so if you can produce tons of mass then you can produce real gravity. What could possibly generate tons of mass without actually creating a planet? And that's where it might get interesting, how big would a ship have to be in order to begin producing its very own gravity? Now that might be a solution to my problem since a lot of ships in my world are 500 something miles in length made out of a fuckton of metal.
     
  11. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Alternatively you could also just have your characters not know how your artificial gravity works. People have been using technology they don't understand for thousands of years. Bakers didn't know the specifics of how fire worked in Ancient Rome and brewers in Medieval England didn't know microbiology. Even the light bulb hung around for nearly a hundred years before Max Planck worked out the theories of Black Body Radiation to explain how they actually worked. Before then it was all, "electricity goes in here, science happens, and light comes out." Even today you'd be hard pressed to find an average iPhone user that understands the correlation between Quantum Tunneling and the touch screen they've probably got several good cracks in already.
     
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  12. TirelessSeven

    TirelessSeven Active Member

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    Dark matter-insulated spaceships could (suspension of disbelief necessary) be a way to create enough mass to negate zero-g. It might be (seem) plausible without too much explanation?
     
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  13. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    That's the thing, dark matter is dark matter. I don't think I've found an article on what or how it could be used for us, just that it exists and it makes up 95% of everything in the universe. I mean, then again, science is just magic explained so eventually, we might actually be using spaceships made out of dark matter in the distant future. How would this dark matter insulated spaceship work?
     
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  14. Legolas

    Legolas Member

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    There is a difference between dark matter and dark energy as well. dark energy harnessed perhaps is easier than dark matter?

    this is sci-fi. take a few liberties.
     
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  15. TirelessSeven

    TirelessSeven Active Member

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    I was thinking maybe a dark matter core, or thin layers/fields between hull plating - that kind of thing. Again, not saying this will be possible (or that there's any scientific reason to to believe it might be), only that it could be made to sound plausible.
     
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  16. TirelessSeven

    TirelessSeven Active Member

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    Legolas - maybe dark energy is better.
     
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  17. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Magnets wouldn't work simply because of the distance limitations. I don't remember the formula offhand, but get some fridge magnets and you'll see what a steep attraction / repulsion curve they have. Three inches apart: Nothing. Two inches, noticeable pull, one inch and they're smacking together in a heartbeat.
     
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  18. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I love PBS Space Time



    Edit: That's all spinning ship stuff though.

    I don't think having a "graviton field generator" is any less realistic than most ideas, especially if the field only works in a closed loop, so the gravity of the ship doesn't mess with celestial bodies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
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  19. TirelessSeven

    TirelessSeven Active Member

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    Never let mechanical stresses destroy your ring.
     
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  20. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    If I had the time I'd make you a detailed blueprint about my tech, just to convince you why and how it works. It creates phantom mass and that's the reason the synthetic substance, let's name it Fucktonium, needs to be in semi liquid form. For obvious reasons it wouldn't be able to come together otherwise. I'd go as far as to write a thesis upon the new synthetic substance and its qualities and about the nanorobots and the ventilation and everything. I could also insert some scientific articles and experimental logs along with the history behind it, while also illustrating the sociopolitical events that occurred during these times. Hell! Why don't I just sell my phenomenal ideas to NASA and enlighten them a little! :p

    My point is: this is fiction. Although science, it's also fiction. If it's so important to explain the tech behind something, just make it up. Copy articles and real scientific data and mix them up with fictional constructs of your mind. Anyway, nobody can blame you for sounding idiotic since they won't even be able to figure out what you are saying, furthermore prove you wrong. ;)

    Btw, even if you have a 500 mile spaceship or station or whatever made out of pure metal in space, in reality it wouldn't produce enough of a gravitational field since its mass would be scattered along it's lengths. You'd need to be on the surface of a solid, metallic sphere in order to counter-react with its' mass and not inside of an empty sphere, even if the empty sphere was larger and had the exact same mass as the solid one.
     
  21. Legolas

    Legolas Member

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    Fucktonium FTW!

    I agree though with the above. it is Fiction! sci-fiction. if you have to explain it that deeply, then it probably isn't going to work. a great deal of sci-fi has been based about possibilities of would could be and not what is. sci-fi has made some things that never were, into reality. For the love of all that is good use your imagination, so that others can use theirs!
     
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  22. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    I like your theory, don't get me wrong but it doesn't suit the theme of my story as in the human civilization wouldn't have access to such an amazing piece of technology like the one you describe. They're more crude and robust when it comes to their tech.
     
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  23. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    I agree with gravity generator, but my least favorite aspect of Star Trek (which otherwise I quite enjoy) is the magic gibberish they use, not to explain away future-tech, but to get out of any given situation. "Captain, it occurs to me that if we reroute the excess goober crystal output to the quantum flibbergibit stabilizers, the ship might survive passage through the Gandolf hole." It's the absolute worst kind of deus ex mach. I'm all for a little hand waving: "How do light sabers work?" "Kyber crystals are special." "Works for me!", just don't fall into a Trek trap where you solve problems with nonsense.

    There are all sorts of explanations (and non-explanations) for artificial gravity in sci-fi. The old assumption was that we figured out how to flip a switch and use electricity, so eventually we'll do the same with gravity, end of all thought on the subject. Now if you want to better explain it, you have two main options: fake words or fake history (often involving fake words). Either take a physics word, like "quantum" and stick "gravity field generator" after it. done. (scientist's names and gibberish work here too.) It still relies entirely on suspension of disbelief, and runs the risk of sounding very silly fifty years from now when the average reader better understands the word "quantum". Look at mid-century sci-fi's liberal use of the word "atomic". Taking it a step further, you can throw in a touch of invented future history wherein Dr. Madeupguy discovered a method to mimic the force of pull exerted by mass in much the same way electricity can create magnetism. The mechanism wouldn't be the same, obviously, but the analog helps ground the explanation. You still need a bit of gibberish here, but we're getting closer to plausible.
    For this method specifically, the hand waving would potentially involve a containment method for a state of matter just on the verge of singularity. An enormous mass that takes up very little space, a tiny, controlled black hole, either in the center of a spherical environment, or dispersed along the bottom of a ship to create "down".
    Paper clips have gravity, but in the amount you mean? Much bigger than 500 miles of steel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
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  24. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

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    This is the fundamental basis of my current novel series (which is apparently about as interesting as oatmeal) but I was able to explain it by not explaining it and asserting that the big problem which had to be over come was that science had the definition of gravity wrong. I think that worked out pretty well for scientific gibberish.
     
  25. LordWarGod

    LordWarGod Banned

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    Ah! A small controlled black hole is an amazing idea and it's actually plausible. I'll be using this idea for my gravity problem, probably put several black holes at the bottom of my ships as well.

    Hm, fair enough. The humans in my world are severely limited since a lot of their knowledge and tech has been long forgotten or destroyed. There are aliens in my world that have created super-structures that spanned across the entire universe before but then again, they don't need gravity anymore.
     
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