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  1. seira

    seira Member

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    Handling Religion?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by seira, Nov 18, 2018.

    Hi, so my novel is an alternative history story with fantastical elements in it. I did not want to use any existing religion because I didn't want to be seen as bashing. So I developed my own. My book is set during the first plague in England. And why most think God is punishing people this other religious group think it has nothing to do with God but the devil and witchcraft.

    They are witch hunters and believe the way to save people is to track down the witch responsible.

    I asked a friend to read through my synopsis tonight, and as a religious person, she seemed a bit offended. She didn't mind my created religion but felt I was portraying all religious people as brain-washed, superstitious, brutal and self-righteous because they believed a germ was sent by higher powers and that they believed so strongly in their version of the bible that they would kill people who were innocent. But that stuff has happened. People have done bad things blindly in faith. Maybe it's because I didn't add in anything good about religion, although we do see another race with a religion that is kind and peaceful. Maybe I should balance it out a bit?

    She said I should be careful because if it ever did publish I'd offend a lot of people.
    Should I worry about offending people or just tell the story I want? At no point did I ever think 'I'll bash religious people and write my view of religion'.

    How should I handle this sometimes delicate subject of religion?
     
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  2. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    It's difficult. But if you spend your life constantly worrying about offending people you'd never say or do anything and no delicate subjects would be tackled by anyone.

    I'm not religious but if people want to believe that's up to them and if it's healthy for them and they're not harming anyone I don't mind what they do. But you do get fanatics, even today who are disliked like the West Boro Baptist Church. They, in my opinion, are a cult that stop just stop. That doesn't mean all religious groups are like that - but they go beyond the line I think. So, instead of trying to even the scores by showing the good side of religion maybe tackle it as they are extremists. Maybe a spin of a standing religion who take things too far, that even the people of the main religion disagree with their actions of killing women convicted of devil worship.

    People tend to get offended when you describe them. People choose to take offense at things. This idea wouldn't offend me because I'm not a religious person so don't feel 'attacked'.
    It's tricky though, I'd also hate to think I was offending anyone because it's something I NEVER set out to do.
     
  3. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    That seems like a decent idea.

    And people have also done horribly atrocious things in the name of science. People are people. They can be good or bad regardless of their belief systems and those belief systems are generally not to blame for their actions. Science and religion are both humanities reaction to having questions and no answers. They're different sides of the same coin. Maybe you should some positive aspects of this religion, like people of the faith trying to bring comfort to the afflicted. Show some characters with moral quandaries, perhaps wondering why this person died of this disease when they were a good person or a child or something. Maybe even show non religious characters doing both good and bad things respectively to draw parallels between the two groups, thereby showing that what they've done they did because they're human and not because they're religious.
     
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  4. angelkevin

    angelkevin New Member

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    You should take her suggestion with a grain of salt.And while as was already said,people are people,i think it would be interesting to show multiple fronts of that.Use the stark difference in social classes during the Medieval times to your advantage,and show how various people's intolerant beliefs are formed.Because what you wrote from the rough description is pretty much what happened.(Brain washing is pretty much just the Church manipulating Christians.)
    Writing an oppressed group can be tricky,especially if it's on a larger scale,so i'd suggest that you show conflict even between the other group,but make those who are more violent also have a reason.
    I strongly suggest you study the time period in wich this is happening,because you'll find quite enough content to manipulate with your writing.
     
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  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    @seira , you say that you didn't use an existing religion, but you refer to the bible. Can you clarify?
     
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  6. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    I think whether or not you should worry about "offending" people is partially dependent on the strength of your own convictions that you're expressing in your writing. "Offense" can only be taken.

    I'm not sure if the message or point of your story is supposed to be about religion. So what is your primary message or point, and how can you shift the focus onto that and away from an unintentional criticism of religion? How can you make your primary message or point more clear?

    If your friend said it came across that way, the easiest way to resolve that would be to do what others have already mentioned. You could have characters who are torn over it with inner-conflict. You could have characters who are at odds with one another, disagreeing over what the cause of the plague is, as well as what should be done about it. You could show how their religious institutions have been corrupted by political influence and people in power (separation of church and state is absent); religion has often been used around the world as a means of control by kings, tyrants, emperors throughout history, but that isn't necessarily the fault of the religion.

    And you could show that the issues are fundamentally human, and religion is the mechanism or medium through which they happen to be manifesting. Get to the heart of the matter: human nature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  7. angelkevin

    angelkevin New Member

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    I think she meant that while it is not straight up christianity,the religion is based around it,taking the basic concepts of the fear of witchcraft and devil-worshipping and christianity's role in history.I suppose that the oppressed group is even more fictional,but she didn't really dwell on it that much in the post,since it focused mostly on the first religion.
    Atleast,this is what i gathered about it,so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong,OP.
     
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  8. angelkevin

    angelkevin New Member

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    You're right.In writing,labeling something as "offensive" is incredibly stupid,mainly due to the fact that what a person writes about doesn't mirror their core beliefs.
    This example is even worse because her friend is getting offended over what is essentially history,because even with the changes the Church has been pretty intolerant through much of history.
     
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  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, as soon as you touch on the subject of religion, whether you've invented it or not, some people are going to take umbrage. I'm thinking of CS Lewis, whose fantasy writings were, apparently, very Christian-oriented (although disguised.) And lots of people hate that. And then you have Phillip Pullman, whose fantasy writings are anti-Christian (although disguised,) and lots of people hate THAT. Both of these people are/were very successful authors.

    If your point is that religion can make people do crazy stuff—and it certainly can—then go ahead and make it. You are not obliged to give 'the other side' equal time. This is your philosophy. It's not a televised debate. By all means take the side you feel comfortable with.

    We don't insist that Christian fiction writers give equally supportive time to the pagan point of view. It works both ways.
     
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  10. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    You should probably include something about religion positive, but I wouldn't feel the need to make it actually balanced between positive and negative portrayals. You can do negative without it being a jab at religion. And you do take a jab at religion if you want. Having something interesting to say is a better goal than avoiding all offense.
     
  11. Azuresun

    Azuresun Senior Member

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    I'd suggest having some variation within portrayals of the followers of the religion. For any given faith, there's going to be a lot of variation amongst the followers, and different interpretations, even within the same sect. Give the followers some nuance, and make it apparent that you're showing "This is what these people think their religion is like." rather than "This is what their religion is like."

    Even within "fanatical witch hunters", there's room for nuance. For example, maybe one of them was saved from a terrible situation (alcoholism, despair caused by a terrible personal tragedy, etc) by their faith, and views themselves as repaying a great debt. Another one views even killing and torture as an act of mercy, because a short period of torment in this life is worth it if it saves the soul of an unbeliever from eternal damnation.
     
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  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    The thing is, what are you basing your made-up religion on? Chances are, assuming you're from one of the western countries, you will probably have been raised with a lot of Christianity around. So, chances are, even though your religion is technically fiction, if it resembles one of the big religions in too many respects, readers will see it as a critique of that particular real-world religion dressed up in metaphors and symbolism. Much like Philip Pullman never once mentions Jesus or the Bible and yet it's well-known his series His Dark Materials is a critique against Christianity (and religion in general). Or CS Lewis never once mentions Jesus or the Bible and yet we know Aslan is a symbol for Christ.

    And then there's the whole thing with organised religion - that faith is generally seen as a good thing but not religion. Even if no specific religion is pointed at, it could be read as a commentary on religion as a concept and thus also on what kind of people the religious generally are. It seems your friend read it this way.

    If you don't want to make it about religion, don't put emphasis on it. If you wanna write about religion, then decide clearly what it is you want to say about it.

    As for offending people - again, it depends. I do believe our writing is our responsibility. We should not promote messages we do not believe in with our writing, and as far as possible it is our responsibility to not encourage evil with our writing. (people will twist anything, of course, which is why I said "As far as possible") So what's the theme? What's your message? What's your aim? I'm sure Pullman offended a world of Christians. It would seem Lewis offended a world of atheists too. Both have written timeless classics still adored by children and adults the (western) world over. Dan Brown offended everyone when he wrote The Da Vinci Code. To Kill a Mockingbird, I believe, also offends a lot of people, particularly with its use of the word nigger that's got itself banned in a few US States I believe.

    In Pullman's and Lewis' cases, they had a message they believed in. In Dan Brown's, there was money to be made. To Kill a Mockingbird had racial themes and a message to deliver. So what are your priorities and your own moral code? Is it necessary to offend? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Depends on the kinda story you're trying to tell.
     
  13. seira

    seira Member

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    If you re-read my post I did say 'their version of the bible'. I don't have a name for this book of Bible yet but the only way I know how to explain it, is it's a bit like the bible but full of predictions for the future. This religion mixes Christianity, paganism, Judaism and a few others from Native American and Australian Aboriginal beliefs. It's still a new concept and I may change it around yet.

    I think I'll revise some of the characters and try to show something good in religion. But this idea was never 'I'm writing a book about religion' it was 'I enjoy the old stories of witchcraft from all over the world, I'm interested in people's minds and the way they think, and I'm interested in religion.' It's hard to write about witchcraft or even medieval times without touching on religion because, I think, in those days everyone belonged to some form of religion. This sense of belief in magic and a higher power made it easy for them to believe in the power of witches.
    But at this moment I'm not sure why people thought witches were bad. I know you had witches treat people and they died but it seemed to be assumed that witches had abandoned God and worshipped the Devil. But I've yet to find a source that really explains clearly why people disliked them
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    That's a whole lot of research. And you'll offend a much larger population of people. :) But you may dilute each individual offense.

    I think that witches (or people who were accused of being witches) were made the scapegoat for all sorts of things. If Farmer Joe's pig died, it must be because a witch cursed it. That sort of thing.
     
  15. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Try to find a source that clearly explains why people didn't/still don't like Jews. Sure you'll get a lot of historical speculation and non-answers, but hate in rarely clear and infrequently rational. Not to mention, like @ChickenFreak said, people with an agenda tend to fan these flames of fear and hate to reach their own political goals. There are probably examples of this happening in the world right now, probably centered around 'illegal aliens.'
     
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  16. seira

    seira Member

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    yeah that's very true, thanks
     
  17. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I'd encourage you to read around religion more if you're planning on writing about it but don't wanna offend. You should at the very least know the term scripture. The Torah, the Qu'ran, and the Bible are all considered holy scriptures of their religion. The Bible is specific to Christianity. It seems to me you haven't bothered to do any research at all if you don't even know such a common term... I believe predictions in the Bible would be called apocalyptic books? (specifically Revelation)

    As for witches - again, you're honestly talking about Christianity here and medieval Europe. It's because witchcraft is considered to be supernatural power from the devil. Anything not of the Holy Spirit is of the Devil, hence the belief that witches have abandoned God etc. You'll find instances of witchcraft and where it's referred to as demonic in the book of Acts.

    If you don't wanna offend by commenting on a specific religion, then don't base it so heavily on Christianity. Christianity grew out of Judaism, and obviously Christianity replaced a lot of pagan practices, so there's gonna be plenty of overlap.
     
  18. seira

    seira Member

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    It's not that I haven't bothered it's that it's a very deep subject that takes time to learn about. And as I said, this is a fairly new idea so I haven't had loads of time to research, nor do I intend to get too bogged down in it and researching something like religion is something you could spend years doing. I only used to term 'Bible' so people could understand what religion is was most based on without me having to go into it. All religions have had "problems" with witchcraft not just Christianity.

    I've noticed the overlap you mentioned and researching that was interesting. I'm not sure what religion I'll use but I wanted to blend current ideas with some of my own. It's all early days yet and just ideas.
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't really think this is accurate. It's not vitally important that we determine whether it's accurate, but I don't think it is.
     
  20. Carly Berg

    Carly Berg Active Member

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    You could probably sidestep the whole mess without extensive research just by using more generic terms. The Prophecy, The One, heretics, etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  21. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    I agree. What about the religions that basically 'are' witchcraft?
     
  22. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I thought Wicca and Voodoo were also religions. Certainly in Wicca, followers consider themselves witches. I lived with one once.

    It's fine to make up your own religion, but if you know little to nothing about it, then your fabrications will very likely be heavily based on the religion you'll have been most exposed to - assuming you're from the West, that's probably gonna be Christianity. If you don't wanna end up doing a fictional version of Christianity, then I'd say perhaps focus your research on some other specific religion. Anything resembling Christianity in the English-speaking world (I assume you're writing in English) will likely raise people's hackles, whether intended or not.

    I'm not suggesting you research in great depth on all religions. Right now it sounds like you're unaware of your own stereotypes and prejudices that you may have about any particular religion or even how/when your opinions were formed, and the very vague way that you're speaking about it makes me think you don't know very much about religion in general. The two in combination is the fastest way to produce something that's sure to offend a lot of people - this is not limited to topics on religion. Maybe I'm wrong about your lack of awareness?

    Disclaimer: I'm a Christian. Raised in church pretty much, fervent part of the youth group as a teen, and now I run the toddler's Sunday School as an adult. My sister's gonna become a vicar next year with the Church of England, my mum has a degree in Christian ministry on top of being a lay preacher (and worked for a year as a pastor) and my dad is also a lay preacher, both graduated from the Baptist Convention.

    I admit I become extra critical whenever I see religious themes, because the non-religious do have a cliche and such a tired way of portraying anyone religious, and they show not an ounce of understanding for what they're critiquing. If you ask my non-religious friends, they'll tell you I'm opened to educated criticism. That, sadly, is rarely found in fiction. So far, yours sounds... like you don't wanna target a specific religion, and yet you're using terms and ideas that most in the West would quickly associate with Christianity. Again, if you're trying not to offend, there may be some things to rethink.
     
  23. ToDandy

    ToDandy Senior Member

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    You could do alternate history....but why? Just make them Christian. If you are making parallel religious commentary anyways, then there is no sense in sidestepping it. But, yes, you should balance it out regardless of if you use a real religion or not, because that dichotomy of how people worship the same God with a different belief system adds depth rather than creating a generic "bad guy" religion, which is just inherently evil.

    And I am religious and nothing you wrote sounded remotely offensive. People SHOULD learn from the atrocities of their religious leaders (there is not a belief system out there including atheism that doesn't have bad eggs) because how else can you avoid making them again in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  24. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

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    People of faith all believe the same thing. They believe that they're right. There is no talking them out of that.
     
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  25. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    What about converts?
     
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