Tags:
  1. seira

    seira Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2018
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    40

    Help with getting started?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by seira, Dec 18, 2018.

    Hi,

    I'm working on a Fantasy novel at the moment that is fairly complex and has a lot of characters, also it covers a few topics I'm not knowledgable about so requires research, building a planet and everything that goes into that – so I don't feel confident starting to write it yet.


    But I have this habit of avoiding it. I get stuck in character/world building too long and so never get a manuscript started. I think it may be lack of confidence or I find it difficult to get the words flowing in the beginning so I tend to avoid starting all together, I'm not sure. There must be someone else out there that has dealt with this problem. So I've decided to set myself goals. So much planning time before I start writing. But how long do you give yourself to plan? Any advice that might help me?
     
    Andrae Smith likes this.
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    I didn't plan. At all. Not even a tiny little bit. I started with two characters interacting, and then I did some research when it mattered.

    I'm not saying this is how everybody should do it. It's not like I'm published. :) But I am writing and enjoying it and I can see the completion of the first draft not TOO far down the road.

    I would suggest that you get do some writing, now, even if you're afraid that the writing may be "wasted". You don't have to start with the beginning. You don't even have to write a scene that you hope will end up in the novel. Just start. If you just did a bunch of research about, say, medieval farming, then conjure up a farmer and a farm hand and write a conversation. If you did a bunch of research about clothing, conjure up a tailor and a customer. Or get started with some of your main characters. Or write from the point of view of a dog wandering through town. Whatever.

    But my advice is: Write. At least a little. Since you're saying--as I understand it--that failing to start writing is where you get stalled, then start doing some writing even if circumstances aren't perfect.
     
  3. Artifacs

    Artifacs Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    273
    Location:
    Spain
    Here's some post that may help you. They include "modus operandi", links to Resources, Blog Posts and some "Outside forum Websites".
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  4. Cha_loee

    Cha_loee New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've definitely dealt with that problem before. In my experience, as soon as I sit down and tell myself "you are going to write something, anything at all," the words will start flowing. At this point, I usually have an outline all written out, but not all of the pieces necessarily fit together perfectly. That's okay though. Personally, I feel that focusing on just story building without actually writing is just discouraging and not all that entertaining. I need to see my words actually go onto the page. I need to write, and not just plan to write or think about writing. Actually writing brings a lot of the passion back and even helps my ideas flow. Typically, I learn a lot more about my story, characters, and world when I write than I do when I plan. That's just me though, and everyone is different.
     
  5. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Location:
    San Diego
    You might be making a mistake by taking on a JRR Tolkien endeavor when a short story would give you some ideas and creds.
    I wrote a lot before I started my first full novel and even then I was out of my depth. Of course you may already have the skill sets to tackle a big story, but for the most of us, it is a journey into the deep end of the pool. I'm not saying scrap your idea, but maybe shelve it for a while. Still when ideas come along you have found you could write a few scenes and put them in your save box then you will have a start when you feel you can have a go at it. Of course you probably already know you will end up rewriting eighty percent of it, so type on good woman, type on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
    Stormburn likes this.
  6. Markus12

    Markus12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Every time I want to write something I do pre-plotting. I have to have some plan how to write, in which order to write, a plot, a list of all characters, all details. When I start writing I don't want to spend time on it or just get stuck somewhere in the middle. But I know that some writers just go through it without any plan. They start writing and ideas, a plot, everything come by itself.
     
  7. Stormburn

    Stormburn Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,223
    Likes Received:
    1,569
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    I would recommend starting by getting the idea for the story on paper. Write the elements of the story that you have right now. Start with the part that you know, and then right all the other parts down. If you don't have a beginning and ending, don't worry. Just write what you have down.
    Now, you should have an idea of what the missing parts are.
    Begin developing those missing pieces. Now, this can be frustrating because writers want to jump from the idea to a finish draft. So they want everything to be 'right'. Don't fall for this.
    Look at your story like a seed. It's going to be a flower one day, but right now it's buried under a lot of ground. So, for right now, you're going to be digging in the dirt, and it's not even close to being a flower. Yet.
    So, let the story develop as you write. Write with the freedom to let the elements of story develop and change as it grows.
    That is the formula: write, develop, write, develop. Let your story be your guide, but always keep writing.
    Don't like your MC's name? Use the name you have until you think of something better. Don't let it stop you from writing. Eventually you will think of a better name. And guess what, on down the line you will think of a better name than that one.
    Here's the last bit of advice. For example, you really want to outline, but you've never outlined before. Find a guide, or writer that who seems to 'sync' with the kind of writer you are, and try their method of outlining. Whatever you are hung up on that is keeping you from writing another writer has dealt with before. Outlining, dialogue, story structure? Someone else has a way that works for them. Try their way until you understand what works for you.
    Happy Holidays and Godspeed!
     
  8. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,864
    Likes Received:
    10,738
    Location:
    The great white north.
    The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, the books, not the recent movie, maybe even the old radio show, gives a pretty strong demonstration of what a reader needs to see to have a believable planet building industry.

    It depends on the story and what it's aims are. If I the story is character based, then less time researching what I didn't know about the setting. But if it's a history of whatever it is I don't know anything about, then much, much more time researching. Not knowing what you have in mind or your specific story goals, then I can't really say much, but you can always start writing the bits that don't need research while you're researching, and fill it in as you go or in later drafts. Regardless of how much research you do, there will likely be a need for further research once you start writing just because plot or character specific situations will crop up that are rarely covered by standard research.
     
    Rzero likes this.
  9. LoaDyron

    LoaDyron Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Hello, my friend :superhello:

    The impression I get when I read your problem is, maybe you are expecting to have the perfect draft at first, which to be honest never happens. And as Stormburn suggested, see your work as a seed that one day will become a flower. However, I will say this. Yes, at times I have some difficulty to see what's going happen next, but that doesn't make me stop writing. While plan can help writers to continue their story, at some occasions can lead to frustration, it may lead to being stuck on the same scene or dialogue; while those can be explored without any preparation. What I say is, just get an ideia what the scene is, what do you wnat to say. Leave your story guide you, leave the characters real themselves to you. How? Just keep writing, doesn't make sense? It's alright. Does your character react in a way that shouldn't? Fine, leave that dialogue alone, and next time you rewrite to try to imagine who your MC will respond. Free more yourself. I hope this helps, keep on good work and remember... have fun :superagree:
     
    Stormburn likes this.
  10. animagus_kitty

    animagus_kitty Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    284
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    I tried four times to start my novel. The fourth time stuck, although perhaps there were reasons besides that I had found the voice I wanted to write in.

    At first, I tried to sound like Tolkien. It was fine for the 'prologue', the bit of history at the beginning, but I couldn't write a space-age fantasy novel like that. I'm just not that smart.
    The second try wanted far too much to be funny, and ended up looking more like 'Whose Line does Sci-fi' than an actual book.
    The third sounded...too much like my brain, and wouldn't have made a good book.
    The fourth time, I had found out *who* my main character was. And even if, sometimes, his words come out sounding like my words, I always know *who* he is.

    Once you have the framework of your society, just try to write. Anything is better than nothing, and you can't get to your fourth try if you haven't done your first.
     
    Tristan's Opa, Stormburn and Azuresun like this.
  11. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Just write, and get into the story. The beginning should generally be the LAST thing you polish when you go through the revision phase anyway. You'll probably throw out your beginning entirely several time before you find one that feels RIGHT.
     
    jannert likes this.
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    @seira - Have you taken the time to actually visualise any scene in your story thus far? In other words, played that scene out in your head, with dialogue, etc? If you have ...try writing that scene.

    It doesn't matter if it's out of chronological order. You can 'catch up' later on, and write the scenes that come before as well as the one that come after. When you get the scene written, then ask yourself 'how did the characters get into that scene?' And 'where will they be going next?' Then envision and write THOSE scenes.

    You can build your whole story that way. At the very least, you'll get something written. If you have visualised the scene and lived with it in your head for a while, you will probably find you're enthusiastic about making it come to life.

    You need to climb out of the plotting/planning rut and move on to the next stage. Envisioning a scene, complete with all the details in place, the dialogue in flow, the characters' emotions and thoughts in play—and then writing it as you see and hear it—is a good way to start.
     
    LoaDyron likes this.
  13. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    844
    Likes Received:
    620
    Location:
    Undecided.
    Start by starting. Write by writing (typing). Set a reasonable word goal and go for it. I would SUGGEST that you write a short story that has nothing to do with your novel idea. Don't plan it, just do it.

    Everyone learns to write well by writing badly.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Not disagreeing, but a possible alternative: My unit of writing is the scene, and a 200 word scene can take me as long to write as a 2000 word scene. So I have a scene goal rather than a word goal.
     
    Rzero and Stormburn like this.
  15. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,742
    Likes Received:
    3,088
    Location:
    Texas
    I've dealt with similar issues. There are as many schools of thought on how to start as there are successful novelists. The same is true of how much prep work to do. The "Don't think! Just start writing and don't stop!" approach is very popular, and it definitely works for a lot of writers, but many of its proponents are mistaken that it's the only way to go. Some people need a thick outline, or they'll write themselves into a corner.

    I've done a great deal of research lately trying to conquer my own writing demons. You find wildly different advice from or anecdotes about equally successful writers regarding their techniques. Stephen King gets an idea and starts writing. He doesn't even know how it's going to end until it does. He writes 2000 words a day until it's finished without deleting, changing or even rereading a thing the first time through, and only fixes problems, including major plot holes and contradictions in the editing process. J.K. Rowling, in the other hand, like many fantasy authors, meticulously outlines for months before writing her first paragraph. Neither is an exception to a rule. Both are valid, popular methods. Don't let anyone tell you there's only one way, because there are endless examples of each.

    What does seem almost universal is the idea that perfecting your first draft, your first chapter or even your first sentence is a complete waste of time. Let your first draft be a first draft. Another near-universal piece of advice I've come across is to give yourself a daily quota. SK's is 2K/day, every single day, George R.R. Martin says his is 10K, though I doubt that. Most shoot for 500 to 1000, 5-7 days a week. I found very few who work for a certain number of hours a day. Almost all set goals by word count.

    Combining these things, I'm now trucking my way through a novel at a pace I've never thought possible for myself. I outlined until I knew the entire story, even workshoping plot holes right here in the forum, and then I set out a schedule. Like most people who aren't payed to write, I don't have the same amount of time every day, so my quota varies according to work and custody schedules. I also started slowly, with attainable goals that increase every couple of weeks. A day or two of cringing as I wrote sub-par prose was all it took. I'm averaging close to 500 words a day and writing more confidently than I ever have. I'll fix and edit on the second pass, and knowing myself as I do, probably the twelfth pass as well. We'll deal with that demon when we encounter him.

    When should you stop preparing and start writing? That depends on how much you need to know beforehand, but at the point you feel you're putting it off for reasons other than the benefit of the finished product, it's probably time to write that first sentence. Don't worry if it sucks. It isn't permanent. Even Jack Karouac's famous "stream of consciousness" experiment, On the Road was rewritten multiple times over the course of a couple of years (longer than the editing time of most "planned" novels). Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
    Thundair and Stormburn like this.
  16. IHaveNoName

    IHaveNoName Senior Member Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    264
    I've experienced what you have (technically, I still am). My story started off as a vague idea many years ago, and I wrote a bunch of notes. I started off writing a bunch of scenes that covered some of the major plot points, then I realized I had to make a world, so I put the writing on hold to do that (I've got a whole series of blog posts about the various facets of worldbuilding, if you're interested). KM Weiland has a blog full of great advice for writers - I've found that her outline system is really useful.

    You'll probably end up going back and forth between worldbuilding and writing for awhile as you figure out what you have to develop for the story. Another bit of advice: if you have one part of the world already pretty well developed, write the parts of the story that take place there, like they do when filming a movie or TV show - all the scenes only get put into the proper order during editing.

    Aside from that, I echo what others have said: writing is good. Doesn't matter what you write, just write something. Oftentimes, I'll plot out scenes in my head when I'm at work, going over things, but it isn't until I get it on the screen that I realize something's missing, or something could be added, or I come up with an entirely new idea that adds to the story. When it's done, sit back and take a break. Something I've found is really helpful, like ChickenFreak said: have some of the characters sitting around just having a conversation. Give the villain (if you have one) a monologue, where he/she/they explain everything. Naturally, this shouldn't actually occur, but it could help you get into their heads if you have them tell you what they're up to.

    Setting a time to write is also good. Having a schedule helps get your mind into gear, kind of "all right, it's time to write now" mindset that helps the creative juices.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  17. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I like this. Word count goals are so high school, and especially when you're just getting started, you'll recall the resentment and reinforce the bad habits that went with those tedious assignments. Above all, it encourages verbosity when conciseness makes for better writing.
    Concise is not the same as terse. It means cutting back on filler, and distilling your writing to the rich essence to clearly present the scene. No more, and no less. If a detail makes the scene pop, by all means add it. If it exposes your character more clearly, or helps to advance the plots, add it. But rambling on about the sixteen varieties of begonias in the garden or the fine architectural nuances of the manor before you is probably not useful, unless you're showing the narrator's delight in horticulture or real estate.
    Terse is just leaving out everything except the naked action. Joe Friday's "Just the facts, ma'am," is probably good police work but isn't great storytelling.
     
    Stormburn and animagus_kitty like this.
  18. Sithis001

    Sithis001 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    4
    The great think about writing a novel is that you don't have to necessarily start at the beginning. I certainly jump around a bit when i write. For me, this helps to capture ideas before they escape my mind. The important thing, is just start writing. It doesn't have to be page 1 ch. 1.
     
  19. animagus_kitty

    animagus_kitty Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    284
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Granted, I'm still working on my first one, but the sequal starts in chapter...3? midscene.
    Write where the inspiration is, because something is almost always better than nothing. Trim something, and it's still something you didn't have before. You can't trim what you didn't write.
     
  20. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Location:
    San Diego
    I agree with ChickenFreak. When I write a scene I"m in the moment and 200 hundred words will fly by. The transition out of a scene into the next one will sometime stifle me, so I look to my characters and the plot line to pull me through to the next one.
     
  21. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,742
    Likes Received:
    3,088
    Location:
    Texas
    That makes a lot of sense. I think the point of a word count goal is to keep a schedule and not slack off. Apparently crippling self-doubt and savant-level procrastination are almost universal traits for the successful veteran and the aspiring novice alike. If writing a scene a day works better for you, then it's definitely the way to go.

    The authors I mentioned had varied things to say about this as well. Most don't quit when they hit their quota. They try to write at least that much and then keep gettin' while the gettin's good, finishing scenes or at least finding a natural stopping spot every day. A few though, Stephen King included, purposely leave themselves wanting to write more. It keeps them excited and motivated to write, even on days they don't feel like writing. That would be a terrible idea for me. I know I'd forget the best stuff I had in mind by the next day, or worse, torture myself assuming I'd lost things whether I really had or not. Besides, maintaining mood and intensity is difficult enough without skipping out mid-scene.
     
  22. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Location:
    Washington State, U.S.A.
    I like how honest you are! The fact that you can see your problem means you CAN overcome it. I would say just start writing. I used to have the same problem. World building is the fun creative part, but it doesn't take you anywhere storywise. You have to make a story come to life in this world of yours. Or rather, make the world come to life through story. I would say, stop planning and just write. Get through the story and then flesh it out. Most stories and readers don't need a whole planet to get engaged in the story, unless you plan on taking them on a city-to-city tour with every chapter. But that would be ridiculously tedious. Flesh out the important places. Know your world, but know your story better. Then you'll know where to take them in your world and what needs to be created.
     
    seira likes this.
  23. animagus_kitty

    animagus_kitty Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    284
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    In addition, you don't need to know *everything* to get started. Things are allowed to not make sense when you start your book. I've been working on my current manuscript on and off for four years, and I've just redone the prehistoric mythos. A lot of things that didn't quite make sense were changed slightly, and now they all make a lot more sense and I can do so much more with those facts.

    All you need is a framework you can tell a story in, the rest you can work on later.
     
    seira and Andrae Smith like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice