Taboo subjects

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Philliggi, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I'm a Christian but I'm not very sensitive to taboos in general, so to me a suicide in a church sounds sad, but no more sad than dying by jumping off a bridge. Churches are highly symbolic and it makes sense to me that someone might choose a church. One may even think of it as dying in the Father's arms, if you will, since the church is the house of God. It's can be seen as a place of peace, and what else could someone considering suicide lack more than peace? Having said all this, churches are also often considered sacred (remember the house of God thing), so I can understand it could very well be taboo. I think for a response that would be of any use to you, you'd have to question those more aware and sensitive to current marketing trends and expectations. Taboos change, after all - what may have been taboo 50 years ago may no longer be taboo - and it's only important that the gatekeepers don't consider it taboo. But considering how easily and readily western society positively enjoys denigrating Christianity as a whole, I seriously doubt killing yourself in a church would be an issue.

    As for something I wouldn't write about - I wouldn't write about the occult. I have read someone's WIP that's loosely based around occult elements, but I wouldn't be comfortable if it goes any more in-depth or realistic. Yes, this is influenced by my faith - it's simply not something I should, or want to, be in touch with. I write and love fantasy, but that stuff is clearly made up. For me, the occult is not made up.

    I once had a premise of a world cursed with stillbirths - every baby ever born was born dead. I tried to write the scene of delivery, and honestly couldn't do it. Of course the words came and I wrote something, but there was hardly any feeling in it. I have a 3.5 year old girl - my mind simply won't go near the concept because I'd be thinking of her, her death, and it's not something I'm willing to contemplate. Ever. So I abandoned the premise altogether.

    I'm not comfortable reading anything that quite clearly/directly bashes God (either as a general concept or the Christian God). Can't stop people writing about it but that doesn't mean I have to buy their books and support the material. I'm happy to read crime fiction where the priest or whoever is the perpetrator of a crime - there's a difference for me - however that concept for me is getting old and tiresome so I tend to avoid it.

    For example, I don't think I'd be reading Philip Pullman's book on the two "Jesus" brothers with an alternate telling of the Gospels. I have read His Dark Materials and enjoyed it - but then I did read it as a young teen where I completely missed all the anti-God references! I did reread the first 2 books as an adult - didn't get onto the third not because of the anti-God content but because Book 2 had way too much padding and I genuinely got bored.

    So, I'm pretty open really and distinguish between made-up and reality, but where that reality starts clashing with my faith, I'm gonna put it down, and I wouldn't be writing that sort of material either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  2. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    We - the human race - can't solve problems that we can't talk about.

    But some problems don't have morally sustainable solutions - at all.

    Or if there are morally sustainable solutions, I'm not able to understand them or talk about them.

    And some of them are so flammable that if you touch them, there will be a shit storm explosion.

    I don't see any point to talk about the findings behind some of those problems - specially if the best science related to them is not reliable because local assistants have had their own agendas and they have not done neutral, impartial and unbiased work.

    The problem is not that those are taboo areas. (They are.) The problem is that touching them with too low level knowledge, understanding and having no good tools for those areas... I wouldn't do any good, but I would do some damage.
     
  3. FifthofAscalante

    FifthofAscalante Member

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    I can’t think of anything I wouldn’t read because it makes me too squeamish. Although I have a very rich imagiation, perhaps it isn’t rich enough, because the most awful thing I’ve seen was a video of a baboon gorging on the hind legs of a young antelope. Then it proceeded to disembowel the antelope through its crotch, one organ at a time, blood up to the shoulder. All the while the antelope was writhing and twitching in agony, putting it’s head down and looking as if had submitted to its fate, then throwing head up, mouth open as if it wanted to scream, but only the light breeze was audible. Pretty fucking horrible. This was in the wild, I believe it was meant for a documentary, but they didn’t use it for obvious reasons. I wouldn’t want to watch it again, but I suppose I’m glad that I did, because now I have the data stored in my brain, ready to be processed for any kind purpose. Humans can’t emotionally sustain themselves solely on positive feels.

    That said, unless an immediate need occurs for me to watch the ISIS execution videos, and I hope it does not, I’m gonna skip those. What’s interesting there is that some may consider me a gorehound.

    Edit: whoops, tapped the “post” button too soon by accident.

    Aside from actual physical violence, whether it be animal or human, there is virtually nothing that could offend me to the point of where I’d absolutely refuse to consume the material. Any kind of filthy sex is fine. If there is ouch-ouch then it depends on how it is portrayed and how much of it there is. I think it’s also important to note that writing or movies, can be revolting on two different levels. That’s moral and visceral. This is especially outlined in my case where only clear cut physical pain matters. Whether the material in question is real has a strong impact on the thresholds.

    I agree with Tarantino that gratuitous explosions of blood and brain and guts can be fun, and this is not a unique stance. Even torture can be comedic (bring out the comfy chair). I believe that same should go for rape scenes and BDSM porn. There doesn’t really have to be any meaning or political statement. It needs to be nothing more than a gripping read, but somehow the society treats sex not just differently, but vastly beyond comparison. Of course, I’m talking fiction, misery in real life is not as fun.

    Edit 2: oh fuck, I’m writing this while trying to fall asleep and I just can’t seem to rephrase some of the sentences into making sense upon a second read. This is the real violence, done to the language and the craft.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  4. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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  5. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    We're rubbish animals who make lovely crunchy noises when we're broken.
     
  6. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Yes, occult's pretty scary, with the young guys in dark bedrooms - when arising in the morning a 'tea, toast, my boy?' receives the:

    'No, Daddy, Satan in righteous salvation shall slay the naesayers. Arise temptation, the mercy of evil pathway. Do you see, Dad? Do you see the dark Christ in our Hell.'

    'Okay, I'll make you a coffee in an hour.'

    'How is he?'

    'He's fine, fine on the internet y'know that Alisteir Crowley is so amusing...'
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  7. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    deleted, too taboo
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  8. Just a cookiemunster

    Just a cookiemunster Active Member

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    I actually enjoy certain taboo subjects even when they are hard to read sometimes, in the way that it pulls me into the story and gets me all emotional and yelling at the book if it is well written. I sort of have a love/hate relationships with certain subjects because I can relate to them due to things I have experienced. And I lOVE characters I can relate to.
    But I don't read or write anything GRAPHIC because it's an instant turn off and I have stopped reading books for graphic gore,graphic language,graphic making out etc. Anything of graphic nature really. My writing always includes a taboo subject even though I am aware it may make many people uncomfortable. Heck, sometimes it makes me uncomfortable myself. But certain things are just hinted upon or shown in a way that does not need detailed description. Never graphic.

    And peronally I don't beleive writing should have limits. It should feel like a free/creative/fun experience without having to worry about what another person is going to think. If I wrote things according to the way I think people would approve of, writing would just feel like a "Task" and not a hobby that makes me feel all bubbly inside when I'm typing away at my computer.

    Books like V.C Andrews come to mind when I think of well done taboo subjects. (The old original V.C Andrews, not the ghost writer)
    And shows like Lo que callamos las mujeres or Clase 406 deal with a lot of those subjects but it's not grahpic about it and always manages to get crazy emotions and a few tears out of me.

    :cool:
     
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  9. EightyD

    EightyD Member

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    I think any topic can be addressed and should be addressed, but it's the approach that matters. If you do the scene well enough (maybe "reverently enough" would be a better fit) it could be powerful in its own right. Seeking an ultimate sanctuary by suicide in a church would be an interesting take.
    As for personal taboos, I would never have a character that is supposed to be morally good do anything to target the vulnerable (socially, financially racially, sexually, et c.) at least not without it being challenged. I also have zero interest in graphic descriptions.
    I think ignoring things that make you uncomfortable just because they make you feel that way does nothing to encourage change.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  10. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    If the writer knows what they're doing, they can get away with a lot. I think back to this, from "The Witch." Okay, "The VVitch," as they so cleverly name the movie:

    Black Philip: "Wouldst thou like the taste of butter? A pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?"
    Girl: (softly) "Yes."

    And what follows is pretty dark (re: the command, "Remove thy shift."). And though it's symbolic of the MC's shedding of the Puritan world, there's also a vile implication. Knowing the mythology of Salem witchery, you can assume the act did occur, but it isn't shown. Because an author can make terrible things happen without putting them on the page. (I should mention that Black Philip was a goat.)

    But be on guard. We live in strange times. It's almost the age of "moral fiction" again where every story needs a life affirming lesson attached to it, and if there isn't one there, readers will assume one for you. It's okay to trash the old ways (from the Red Revolution: ideas, customs, culture, and habits of mind), but if you challenge new moralities, even to flesh out a purposely flawed character, you might be burned at the metaphorical stake. Like a witch, strangely enough.

    So while I hear a lot of "anything goes," I'm not sure I believe it. I know there's stories I won't write because of backlash. The best strategy I can come up with is to skate the edge and leave anything truly damning unwritten in the subtext. There are ways to make that work and to almost have it punch harder by not being explicit. I think it's about understanding the medium. You can bend it but don't break it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  11. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    It's interesting to hear you say this. I saw Truby in an interview define theme as, "the author's view of the right way to live with other people."
     
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  12. Nariac

    Nariac Contributor Contributor

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    Interesting. Specifically execution? Where do you stand on murder mysteries for example? Like, is it the fact that execution has a veneer of legality around it that makes it even more horrifying?
     
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  13. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    That's a dangerous definition he's using. I don't think we want to our writing reduced to "Pilgrim's Progress," etc. where the MC is a metaphor for how we should live. I mean, the theme is your underlying message, but that doesn't mean you have to aspire to it. It doesn't mean justice has to be done. It's okay to think about ugliness. That's part of who we are. The good guys don't always win and sometimes, in spite of everything, the MC doesn't become a better person. That's one of the basic endings (though less done): ignoring all the disasters that should change a man, the MC leaves the story as the same person.

    I remember back in the 90's when Ice T (via Body Count) had "Cop Killer" out on the radio and there was so much flak against him. Taboo, I guess. When he was asked about the controversy, I don't remember his quote exactly, but it went something like: "People confuse me with characters in my songs." Which really opened my eyes a bit. I was assuming too that the song was about him directly, but it wasn't. It was an expression of his anger through fiction/verse.

    I feel like we're slipping away from all of that to an attitude that's almost Victorian in manners. Story should be king and theme is just along for the ride.
     
  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes. I don't cringe at reading about murder, death in battle, etc. But legalized murder? The judge's black cap. And all that 'last meal, last visit, last walk' thing. Gives me the TOTAL creeps. I don't care how bad the person was (and some of them are innocent altogether) that whole delay/ritual thing is awful to consider. I'm glad I don't live in a time where we were expected to attend public executions. And I'm really glad the UK has no capital punishment at all.
     
  15. S M Tolley

    S M Tolley New Member

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    I do find it odd that I'm so certain I wouldn't write about this, considering it is very specific, but I wouldn't write a tale about modern necrophiliac serial killer who gets away with it. I mean, the plot wouldn't make any sense, not with all that DNA evidence being left behind. (For the record I am a fan of dark comedy, and no, I'm not saying that to try and make anyone feel better if they've been offended.)
     
  16. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

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    Personally? No. Taboo subjects are really just a social convention and there is no reason beyond societal norms why they shouldn't be considered normal. Even the most extreme of acts I will write or read about if the situation calls for it such as cannibalism (which I personally don't find to be anything wrong assuming the "donor" is either already dead or a willing participant - otherwise we stray into the territories of murder, assault and the likes which is a seperate issue and not really relevent here as they are not taboo), necrophilia (I consider this a victimless crime so long as the perpetrator has not killed his "interest")* and the likes. And I do find it all the more refreshing when I read it in a book, or see it in a movie or the likes.

    So, In short, I don't think there is anything considerd taboo in my society I wouldn't write about given the correct circumstances, plot, settings or otherwise.

    *I don't consider dead bodies as anything more than hunks of flesh no more deserving of respect then your car or pen might - their memories and actions, sure; respect them if you so want, but their bodies? no. The moment you die any wills, wants and needs you may have once wished for or had is out the window. I find that not actively harvesting organs, blood, or the likes from dead people to be pretty much just a waste really.

    Then again, I've been told I am unusually cold hearted about this. But that probably just goes along with who I am really.

    Not intended to offend anyone, just stating my own personal viewpoints (which I am aware some many disagree with, perhaps even passionately, but to each his own).
     
  17. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Don't watch Dead Man Walking then, that one will make you cry at the execution of a confessed rapist/murderer. Amazingly well done film, but almost certainly not your cup of tea.
     
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  18. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Yes - I am triggered to distress in the arenas you describe.
     
  19. Norfolk nChance

    Norfolk nChance Banned

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    There is one taboo subject I want to write about, but its hard framing it into a fictional story. I want the reader to follow a day in the life of an ordinary NIST worker. The reader through a short progressive lesson story that explains the Newton’s three laws of motion in layman’s terms. It needs to hook, and keep the reader following along. Not a history or physics lesson dump... this is the struggle. I actually need to hide the actual real reasons for each incident... It can’t look like a lesson.



    Plot Structure

    Start will be around the MC and his normal every day work environment. He works for the NIST in New York City. Just an average Joe...

    The rising tension and conflict build over three separate incidents. Each incident showing one of the three laws of physics in action.

    The climax would show the MC in a real-world incident or accident involving the laws in action that can now be easily seen and the reader understands.

    The falling action now involves the taboo subject. The MC watches the September 11th WTC attacks and notices something odd. Tower 1 & 2 fall way to quickly, in fact both took between 10 & 13 seconds with freefall speed at 8-9 seconds. The 1 & 2 WTC should in theory have taken around 30 to 40 seconds at the quickest. Then, the MC goes on to watch WTC 7 and this completely makes absolutely no sense at all...

    The resolution of the tale with our MC. He won’t uncover or come up with some bull conspiracy theory just restate the freefall speed data and the NIST Investigation official results...

    He turns and jokes to the reader, a TRUE event that Broke the Laws of Physics, or is it a misconception on the truth...?



    I want to disguise the true story. It needs to also disguise the fact the reader will be taken through three incidents that are in fact physics lesson. The idea then or surprise is a TRUE event cannot break the laws of physics... So, what’s left...?



    Norfolk.

    The other story that might be taboo I wanted to tell is called “Giving a Toddler a Handgun...”
     
  20. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Yes - certainly another taboo/trigger for me personally.
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I realize that you probably don't want to discuss this in detail, but I feel the need to counter this with my firm opinion that "anti-God" is too simple an interpretation.
     
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  22. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    I agree. If it's written well enough, and you disguise the questionable content with some humor you can get away with quite a lot. In the passage below Rosemarie unwittingly repeats a 'naughty nun tale' told to her by the animal trainer at the opera house where she lives. Of nuns who milk male goats by moonlight and brew lavender scented shampoo. There'll be far worse than naughty nun jokes to come, so I better get my practice in before those scenes in the story need writing.


    “Were they Robespierre’s men? Did they mean to arrest you?”

    “That may well be in my future, but no, I think it was my comings and goings that was of interest to them. I seem to recall two men looking out of place whilst visiting an apothecary here in Paris. It was only as I departed Corsica at Saint-Florent that I —”

    “Oh! I know of ‘the Nuns of Saint-Florent.’ ” Rosemarie interrupted.

    Valerie arched a brow. “Pardon? Pray tell me, what would that be?”

    “It is said that on Corsica the goats are most”— she looked up at the ceiling, searching for the word— prolifèrant! Gael told me a story about the convent at Saint-Florent, of which the nuns are very industrious, seeing to the good works of the Lord through diligent enterprise. Twice a month, when the moon is full, the old women of the convent venture out to a lowland plateau to milk the goats. They brew the,  pudding, as Gael referred to it, with lavender and bottle it to sell to the queen and her ladies at exorbitant prices. Do you know they wash their hair with it! It’s much sought after.”
     
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  23. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

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    Suicide in a church? I think that's kind of brilliant, in that depending on how you wrote it, it could be interpreted in so many different ways. Someone seeking the ultimate in peace? Someone delivering the ultimate "fuck you" to God? Someone who had nowhere else to go? I say go for it.

    As to what I'd consider "taboo"? Probably not what you think. I adamantly do not, and will not read or write "Mommy blog"-esque stuff because I find it so incredibly vapid. The rest varies according to the needs of the story. Writing heavy stuff has never been an issue for me.
     
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    That's already on my do-not-watch-ever list. But thanks for the reminder. I remember having to read a story back in junior high school, called "The Valiant Never Taste of Death But Once" or something like that. It was AWFUL. About a man who was obviously innocent of a crime, but was awaiting his execution. Aaargh....
     
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  25. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    I read once that the Russians feel it's inhumane to tell their death-row prisoners the exact date and time of their executions. They periodically shuffle condemned prisoners from cell to cell, but there's one cell with a large-bore drain in the middle of the floor. By the time you notice it, the bullet should be entering the back of your head.
     

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