Tags:
  1. Norfolk nChance

    Norfolk nChance Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Hong Kong

    Problem World Building a Realistic Galactic Empire

    Discussion in 'Science Fiction' started by Norfolk nChance, Jan 6, 2019.

    You’ll need a bottle of red for this one...

    I’ve got a real problem trying to build a realistic Galactic Empire. This I believe comes from how it grew, develops in a timeline with politics and economics. The problems I stumbled into have left me thinking its neon impossible for one to exist. The POST is long and heavy to show the issues I’m facing so be warned. Plot Devices used need to be believable. I’ve added references and links after each section. Again, apologies for the length...

    Any help is much appreciated,


    Norfolk


    First Research...

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/largest-galactic-empires-known-in-sci-fi.160270/


    The Roman Empire

    The Roman Empire @Matt E suggested operated very differently from Star Wars or Asimov’s Foundation. It went through a Life-Cycle of safety, knowledge, wealth discovery to ultimately fail. The failure caused internally to self-destruct and not by the external invaders. This proved by the knowledge lost as we entered the dark ages. Politics killed Rome... An Empire expands for Geo Discovery, thirst for knowledge, Economic gain and Home Kudos.

    A Galactic Empire

    A Galactic Empire I can’t see surviving any length of time using a realistic Roman model. Geo discovery plateaus; when a new galaxy, local group or solar system is found it pretty much looks like one we’ve seen before, anomalies a rarity. Knowledge growth is not linear and comes in spurts. When these plateaus, then boredom sets in. Think about reaching transhumanism and near Immortality limits here for aliens. The Galactic Empire needs some form of drive to thrive expand and survive.

    When these stages are gone, it leaves the kudos at the Central Hub or economic gain realized at that hub. Otherwise there is no point to expansion and eventually the empire collapses in on itself like Rome. In Bank’s novel The Algebraist, The Galaxy wide Dwellers needed Slow Time in order to survive a billion standard year Life Span. When mankind finds the way to increase the diameter of myelinated Axon fibers in our brain it will make for very fast nerve conduction. Think about the Brain operating on a 1996 internet to fiber optic broadband. We’ll hit a similar problem as The Dwellers... see Transhumanism ref spoiler

    It will lead to a knowledge explosion that then plateaus. This leaves just the Conquer for kudos as economics won’t apply. The Roman Empire problem stage is entered. Civil war self-destruction ensues. This is fine because a knowledge plateau for a Galactic Empire must be millions if not billions of STD years, right?

    Well no I don’t think so. If time have a look at “My AI Self-aware issues” in ref spoiler

    The year 2120 could be the start of a Super Renaissance explosion and before 2500 we’ve completely plateaued knowledge wise. That’s only 500years; the Roman Empire lasted for 507years. Modern humans are only 200,000years old. We’ve nothing left to discover. At such a young age we’d need something in order for us to push out to a Level 3 type civilization...

    I can’t see it happening. We’d be bored within 1,000years and self-destruct. Not enough time to expand, populate and conquer the Milky-Way let alone the Local Group.

    A Galactic Empire I cannot see how it can ever exist...

    GE References

    Galactic Empire References

    Transhumanism and Immortality

    Isaac Arthur explaining seriously some very wobbly science. Includes myelinated axon fibers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok8N2PkqCDs&t=1100s

    My AI Self-aware Issues

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/ai-self-aware-issues.160268/#post-1726032

    We need drive in order to live. Boredom or plateaus kill. The 2045 Initiative mentioned if successful is only 25 years away. In only 100 years, increased size of myelinated axon fibers and 2045 Initiative seem achievable.

    Use a Real-Life Galactic Empire then?

    To be believable I should copy the history of a Real Galactic Empire instead of using Rome. Where to start here is problematic as so far; we are only intelligent life forms we know of. Ask yourself do you think we are totally alone in the Universe? My guess is YOU think no. Using the Drake Equation is wobbly because of too many assumptions. The Original guess was 10 Civilizations active at any one time within our own Milky-Way. Current models come in as low as 1.3 (i.e. just us) and as high as 10,000. See ref spoiler below

    So, you see the problem?

    Life might be abundant and evolves into a super intelligent status level in under 300,000years. Then it goes into extinction through sheer boredom. We can’t ignore this factor in world building, notice in STAR WARS there have being no new inventions for half billion years? How could the Republic survive for so long a time to then be destroyed totally in under 30years?


    Real GE Refs


    Educated Guess at the Age of a REAL Galactic Empire

    OK let’s say we or another race find a long-term motivation to give focus after knowledge growth plateaus. Can we guess how old a Real Galactic Empire could be? Well using a calendar to give scale we can with our own Milky-Way... see Age of GE Refs now

    This very quick scaling shows we humans are very young. An old or the very oldest intelligent life in our own Milky-Way we can estimate. The spiral formation will give a steady environment for a new born star in mid-May or 6.5billion years ago. By mid-September if all goes well, multicellular life. September 29th 3billion years ago, we can expect Human equivalent intelligence as of today’s standard.

    That’s a big head start on humans if the civilization survives. They will need to be star fairing as well by November or 2billion years ago with the original star exhausting its fuel losing mass, expanding out. So, present day they’d need to be higher than a Type II civilization to have survived using the Kardashev Scale. This is an important concept to understand, stars don’t last forever and do change over their life time. The civilization needs to be interstellar star fairing within a COSMIC calendar month (1billion years) or they’ll be wiped out by their Home stars expansion. This is a RACE for intelligence growth to survive, good motivation.

    Universe wise Older Galactic Empires are unlikely. Not enough time would have past for the abundance of the heavier elements to have formed. They simply wouldn’t survive the home stars death even with the knowledge.

    Age of GE Refs

    Size and Scale...The COSMIC calendar is a way to view chronologically the Universe scaling it through a single year. This helps imagine Empire building better and looking forward in time with appropriate scale. The Universe starts on January 1st with the Big Bang and ends at Midnight December 31st present day. This means each calendar month represents about 1billion years, every day about 40million years.

    A Millionth of a second past midnight January 1st from a pinprick tinier than a single atom came a massive explosion or big bang brought the Universe into life. From this tiny size she expanded out at a colossal speed out pacing light, called inflation to cool and slow down. By January 10th she the universe cooling further, with Hydrogen and Helium starting to swirl and clump together with gravity creating the very first stars. By the 13th with more gravitational pull these stars form the first galaxies. Gaining more pull these Galaxies clump together to form even larger galaxies. This happened on March 15th 11billion years ago including the Milky-way. The thin spiral disk rotating as we know today formed on the 12th May.

    The mounting gravity crushing, compacting, fusing the early elements together into stars that then supernova creating new heavier elements. The process continues creating new stars and star stuff. By August 31st our Sun or Sol is born 4.5billion years ago.

    After the Sun exploded into life, a debride field was left over in orbit. Unable to escape the star’s gravitational pull the materials collided and clumped together orbiting Sol. The Earth forming with the moon on September 6th.

    Life began to appear on the 21st September 3.5billion years ago. December 17th saw the first life forms leave the Oceans to live on land. Forest, Dinosaurs, plants and birds all evolved in the final week of December. The first Flowers bloomed on the 28th.

    Early morning, pre-dawn 6:24am 30th December a 10mile wide asteroid impacted the Earth at the Yucatan Peninsula Mexico. This ending the 100million year reign of the dinosaurs. The last hour on the last day humans start to evolve. The time 11:59 46seconds or the last fourteen seconds occupies all our recorded history. All the wars, all the Kings and all human achievements all happened in the very last second on the cosmic calendar...

    Going future forward, by year2 Mid-January the Earth through palaeotectonic movement will have returned to a single continent. The Earth’s axis tilt will be out to as much as 90 degrees. By the close of January 1billion years in the future the Earth will no longer be able to support current human life.

    In about 4billion years or the end of April year2 the Milky-Way Galaxy will have a cataclysmic collision with her neighbour the Andromeda Galaxy within our local group.

    If we survive by the end of June, 7billion years forward the Sun as lost a large amount of mass fussing the last hydrogen atoms into helium. It will have expanded in size 250 times however; the Earth may survive being gobbled up. The loss of mass comes with the loss of gravitational pull or hold an object as. The Earth and other planets will have steadily moved into larger orbits away.

    Educated Guess at the Size of a REAL Galactic Empire

    The oldest real Galactic Empire anywhere we could guess be about 3billion years old. The age of the Universe is about 13.8billion years old. Using the COSMIC calendar gives our Empire and Universe a sense of scale. The size of the Universe and our Empire we measure in the time it takes a beam of light to travel a year in a vacuum. Without sinking into details here; from earth the observable universe out is 46.5billion light years in any direction, giving a sphere with a diameter of 93billion light years. A team at the University of Oxford believe the Universe is at least 250 times larger than the Observable one or 7trillion light years across.

    https://www.space.com/24073-how-big-is-the-universe.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

    That’s big, and brings up the next problem of travel time it takes our Empire to expand out from Earth. Light Travels in 1year 10trillion km distance or 6.2trillion miles. That’s 300,000km per second (186,000 miles per second) or 671million miles per hour. These are some mind-boggling numbers. Some use of perspective needs understanding. Just to mention here regarding Radio for communication. Radio waves are a type of electromagnetic radiation and thus they move at the speed of light in a vacuum also.

    The distance between the Sun and Earth is 150million km (93m miles) and is known as 1 Astronomical Unit (AU). Using the above 150m km divided by 300km/s and we get 500 seconds or 8 minutes 20 seconds. If the Sun suddenly disappeared, we wouldn’t notice for 8 minutes.

    The nearest Star system to our own Sol system is called Alpha Centauri. It consists of three stars and four or more planets. The distance away from us is some ~40trillion km. It takes a light beam 4.25years to travel this distance.

    The Milky-Way Galaxy is about 150,000 light years in diameter.

    Large Magellanic Cloud (LMC) neighbour is 14,000 light years in diameter and 158,000 light years away

    Andromeda Galaxy is 220,000 light years in diameter and 2.5million light years away

    The current fastest Spacecraft is the Parker Solar Probe. In 2024 the probe heading towards the Sun will reach a speed of 692,000km/h (430,000mph) or 0.00064 of light speed.

    These astronomical distances and the impossibility of faster-than-light [FTL] pose a huge challenge to the Sci-Fi writer. He can deal with it in several ways. First, accept this limiter which involves slow moving ships, hibernation/generation ships, and time dilation – the onboard crew perceive the distance as much shorter and thus flight time will be short from their perspective. An onboard ship flight time of 5years might equate to 50years of time passing back on Earth. This at present day, the 2billion year old Empire won’t have got far at all...

    Take a look at the Size of GE Refs spoiler link. Watch the YouTube links as well as I try to offer a solution to the OP. Even using the fastest moving Sci-Fi starship it would take 8years to cross the Milky-Way at 6k of c. That’s way too slow to have a single Control central hub for the Galactic Empire.

    Control Power delegation is needed in order to function. This at 6,000 times the speed of light...!

    Size of GE Refs


    Summary

    This is what I wanted to use as a story backdrop to a Galactic Empire. Opera covering many generations or descendants used as Characters at different growth stages. Again, apologies for the length and any help would be greatly welcomed...

    Norfolk
     
  2. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ultimately it’s up to you as to what your gallactic empire will look like. A few questions to ask would be: what is a gallactic empire? Is it enough for the gallactic empire to simply be one common nation of gallactic scale? For example, is the Star Trek Federation an empire? If not, does it need to more specifically be a single state governed militarily by one emperor? Would a fractured empire count, similar to the Eastern and Wesrern Roman Empires?

    For such an empire to sustain itself, be it just a state or a literal empire governed by an emperor, incentives would need to be aligned to ensure that every member of that empire chooses to stay within it. Those incentives could evolve over eons, but would need to exist in one form. For example, the empire could begin as a small military state. Member states must remain in the empire, or face the nuclear anihilation of an imperial battle fleet. This is the early Roman Empire. The Star Wars Empire. Rule by sword or by blaster. Look up the Tarkin Doctrine — if a star system rebels, it is destroyed.

    But this model is difficult to sustain for truly vast empires. One would need a truly invulnerable military to prevent everyone from rebelling at once. Any maybe that exists. But there are other ways to do it. Think about the stages of development of Azimov’s Foundation. First a religious cult, then a merchant empire, then I stopped reading. But a merchant empire is one way to do it. If it makes no economic sense to leave the empire, then why would anyone leave it? One could argue that this is the current world order on Earth — there is no global emperor, but most nations play ball will each other for economic reasons. This is Peter F Hamilton’s Commonwealth, which didn’t even have a military while it controlled 300 worlds. If a planet rebelled, it would lose immortality tech. A big incentive.

    So what are the incentives? Why do people join the common idea which is your gallactic empire? There are many different answers to that question. And the answers can be different in different times. And the Empire doesn’t have to live forever.

    On aliens — maybe they don’t exist (Fermi Paradox) and maybe they do, and that’s why everyone wants to join the empire to be safe. That would be Scalxi’s alliance in Old Man’s War if I recall correctly.
     
    Stormburn and Norfolk nChance like this.
  3. Norfolk nChance

    Norfolk nChance Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    @Matt E

    What have the Romans ever done for us?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

    An initial Symbiotic Relationship leading to assimilation is my thought... (what motivates the Borg then?). You make some really good points big thank you; the Asimov point different to mine but even so the Foundation evolves just like any character. I don’t like the Star Trek Federation multi-culture flat structure system. The Pyramid Selling or Multi-level marketing style of power delegation somehow, I prefer.

    The starter Races each need to help Uplift new civilizations with potential added value. Then the new ones when ready go out and uplift other potential added value civilization. And so on… I’m from Leeds, West Yorkshire originally and York always fascinated me. The tribal area was the Briganti and became a Roman Client State. Things went south and the Ninth Legion went in that was that.

    However, the burial sites uncovered local men dressed as legionary soldiers and local clothing. The Romans used the locals to police themselves. This makes sense, but the junior civilization needs to contribute upstream somewhere.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York

    My Galactic Empire is the MC, showing all the normal MC emotions trials and tribulations with growing pains. Like you suggest with Rome it changed culture over time, many times. I should write a GE Life-cycle plan, military to exploration to uplift etc… Earth’s first stage Empire move will be solo interstellar just for species survival post Sol. I need to re-listen to Mike Duncan’s THoR podcast back at the very first survival stages of Rome. Taking the women from the other tribes lol.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_engineering


    The knowledge plateau I think is a real killer issue. Knowing something and not being able to do anything about it is a show stopper. I’m sure through DNA advances increased Myelinated axon fibres is less than 100years away. Giving a toddler a handgun…

    What happens if we can’t get around light speed? We fully understand the Kardashev scale but can’t complete any stages. The backwater spiral arm of the Milky-Way gave life a fighting chance, but now is a massive hinderance with us stuck in the middle of nowhere… would believable plot devices like we get Uplifted, but I don’t want an easy route.


    On aliens – this maybe so, and I liked how the alliance played out in OMW. With a play area of 7trillion light years across, what a waste if we are the only intelligent life form. If a Real-Life Civilization reach a type 2 level then their star would dim or disappear due to the technology introduce. Let’s say the Civilization started 3billion years ago. We can safely assume it reached Type2 way back when and is probably a Type3 or a Real Galactic Empire. That means we should see “nothing” or just a void where the galaxy was. No light wavelength is emitted as all the energy is collected…

    Want to see a Real-Life Galactic Empire…?


    Again, thank-you for the valuable input much appreciated.


    Norfolk.
     
  4. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    178
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    One aspect I kinda always had an issue with is that, lots of civilizations have "galactic" empires but they never portray scale in any realistic way. And by that I mean, I picked up a book once, and it's not bad but I was reading through it as there is an appendix that acts as a lore-dump and they go on to explain how they have nigh-omnipotent AI gods, FTL travel and galaxy-ending super weapons...and like two-hundred planets. Or the Terran Empire from the Starcraft Games, who rule over like hundreds of worlds or thousands of worlds and trillions of people and have interstellar missiles that can shatter worlds and like...uh, fifty battlecruisers. In their ENTIRE navy. Because that works. Even the Empire from Star Wars is portrayed as being absurdly vast and powerful, ruling the entire Milky Way and dominating literally tens of millions of worlds with planet annihilating weapons like World Devastators and Death Stars...and have like twenty-five thousand ships. It's kinda silly, so much so there is a trope name for it: Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale. The only ones that I think ever really got it right would be the IOM from Warhammer, The Culture from...well The Culture, and the Galactic Civilization from Lensmen.

    In all three instances, it basically outright says that once a civilization, say the Imperium of Mankind, becomes so immense then resources become limitless and numbers become irrelevant. They rule a million worlds, AT MINIMUM, probably more if you count uninhabited planets under their fiefdoms. They have thousands of fleets with thousands of ships and armies that span planets. The Imperium could muster millions of ships and trillions of warriors so the idea they would "run out" of something or only have like a dozen ships is preposterous. The term "post scarcity" gets thrown around to describe it but the way I would describe it is, if you have a trillion dollars then losing a few million isn't going to bankrupt you. That's why whenever people have those "vs" videos and debates and the Imperium gets thrown around, or The Culture for example, they wipe the floor with everyone else because unlike say the Mimbari Federation or the Starfleet from Star Trek, the Imperium could realistically just throw cruisers at a target until it falls down and not care. Same thing with The Culture and The Civilization, they've achieved a scale and a power where the concepts of resource scarcity become some distant dream. Maybe not on a planet-by-planet basis, i.e. one planet may run out of materiel or ships or whatever, but on a societal level. On a wider societal level the Imperium can never "run out" of resources, because they genuinely have millions of systems to turn to if they need it.

    And yes I understand, as if I've been told before, that this is "unsubtle" or "overpowered" but that's just how it works. Sometimes things ARE overpowered. This kinda steps into something I said in another thread about how fantasy universes would realistically look if magic existed like in D&D: you have magical "wards" (shields), you have flight, interdimensional travel, time travel, directed-energy attacks using magic, etc. Realistically a universe with that kind of magic would have like giant golems powered by sorcery and magical energy cannons and giant airships armed with rocket batteries...in other words it would be Avatar: The Last Airbender, and if you took the civilizations shown in that series and had them fight, say, Westeros or Middle Earth they would crush them in seconds. That only seems "overpowered" only because the people who wrote Avatar wrote a realistic world where sorcery exists and technology moves forward, not stagnant and frozen in the middle ages. By that same token the Imperium or The Culture only seem "overpowered" because Games Workshop and Iain Banks had the foresight to actually write a realistic science fiction stories involving society on a scale that matches their technological development.

    Anyway, that's my take. TLDR: at a certain point technology must advance, and when it does, it can seem OP.
     
    LazyBear and Norfolk nChance like this.
  5. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    740
    Location:
    Seattle
    The idea of a multi-level-marketing gallactic empire is interesting. That reminds me of the system in the Expeditionary Force books. In those, there are two senior species, the Maxalts and the Rindaloo. Both possess the greatest level of technology in the galaxy, and have their own coalition of client species. These client species have less technology; if they try to create technology beyond their station, they’re nuked from orbit. One of the Maxalt’s client species is the Theranon. The Theranon, and all their peer species, have multiple client species themselves, who are one rung down the ladder technologically. They use this pyramid structure to delegate increasingly undesirable tasks in the gallactic war between the Maxalts and the Rindaloo.

    That uses technology to form a pyramid, which works well because it can ensure a decisive victory in any war. Though secret science programs can cause occasional upsets. Which is fine for the Mary Kay species, so long as one of their many pawns gets kicked out of the pyramid, not them.
     
    Norfolk nChance likes this.
  6. Norfolk nChance

    Norfolk nChance Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Giving a Toddler a Handgun

    … A Galactic Empire Uplift plot/setting idea

    OK this is what am thinking…

    Any thoughts here? This backdrop is not intended for just one vehicle story but multiple from many different POVs. A training aid into my first Sci-Fi steps if you like…


    An old, Large level3 Galactic Empire with many races having symbiotic relationships that is hierarchically layered via Uplifting like in a Multi-level Marketing plan called [MLM-3GE]. The top hierarchy realise or anticipate a threat on its outer boarders from a Small Level 2/3 Military-State Galactic Empire [MS-2.5GE].

    The [MLM-3GE] first stage plan is to create some short-term defence stopper between the two Empires giving time to assembly and deploy the Fleet to the region. The [MS-2.5GE] is Milky-Way based moving towards the Andromeda Galaxy, the [MLM-3GE] home.

    This defence stopper is the Sol star system on the outer edge of the Milky-Way. They plan to alter or enhance one of the early bipedal intelligent mammals or BIMs living on its third planet. It’s a risky plan to make them into the main ultra-aggressive APEX predator on that planet with an insatiable appetite for growth at any costs in a very short space of time. This first Contact mission team would stay and monitor the BIM progress but not make official contact.

    The alteration will give the BIMs learning abilities way beyond the normal natural growth rates of evolving life forms. The apex predator BIM Civilization [APBC] race split the atom after only 200,000years. Just after this, they enhanced the Myelinated axon fibres. All this before any serious attempt at space travel. The normal average time a race would develop to this stage is about 10million years.

    The Contact mission team is then sent after Axon hurdle is achieved. The goal to UPLIFT [APBC] race from level0.7 to near level2 and to nurture them (but L2 restricted). The [MLM-3GE] expects the child race to run a mock with an explosive expansion plan around the local Sol areas like Alpha Centauri and others. The [MS-2.5GE] will need to remove the child race first in order to progress on towards Andromeda. They would not try to assimilate [APBC] into their own Galactic Empire. This was the normal procedure, but due to [APBC] over aggressive tendencies and very young age, the risk of internal disputes is too high and it should be eradicated.

    [MLM-3GE] defensive stall plan would give the added bonus of the Child-Race being eliminated by the enemy. [APBC] is only a short-term solution and was always intended to have short life cycle…


    … and so on…

    Any thoughts much appreciated as always…


    N.
     
  7. LazyBear

    LazyBear Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    231
    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    The ability to travel faster than light wouldn't prevent an empire to collapse from corruption, greed, treason and racism. The ultimate weapon would be useless if everyone turned against the dictator once they had enough. Shooting your own people is a sure sure way to be betrayed by your own staff. After all, Rome didn't last very long compared to the lifespan of Earth, so another civilization would be unlikely to ever meet them.

    The most likely space empire would consist of insectoids or cyborgs with obedience built-in to every soldier's body. This is bound to happen eventually once a leader refuses to step down and has access to gene manipulation. The next step in growth is to overcome enemies hacking biological communication systems and random cancers of defective units within the ranks.
     
    Norfolk nChance likes this.
  8. Norfolk nChance

    Norfolk nChance Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    @LazyBear

    “The ability to travel faster than light wouldn't prevent an empire to collapse from corruption, greed, treason and racism.”

    I agree with your point totally. However, without FTL a genuine Galactic Empire will struggle to exist, to gain enough real-estate due to the expansion of space. Still further, practically impossible to reach level3 status if done by a single standalone dominant race.

    Like suggested above, a single Race Empire will probably be militaristic, younger in age and smaller in size. The Star Wars Empire for example without Hyperspace. Very Roman -ish in style and expansion but will struggle to control a single Galaxy never mind becoming a true Galactic Empire.

    “The most likely space empire would consist of insectoids or cyborgs with obedience built-in to every soldier's body. This is bound to happen eventually once a leader refuses to step down and has access to gene manipulation...”

    A Galactic Empire based on insectoids or a hive mind again very believable. This is like an AI cyborg culture that can self-replicate from new matter discovery to continue to push out and expand. Probably one of the fastest ways to do it without FTL.

    My thoughts cover power delegation through uplifting lower life forms. Using a technological hierarchal hurdle system to keep control of the GEs expansion. Using other life forms to accelerate expansion growth while still keeping some form of trickle-down governance through technology. This is a bit like a Multi-level marketing scheme or a pyramid selling campaign.

    My plot setting, leans on advanced intelligence grows at a lot slower pace than what we humans have experienced. The idea, is through gene manipulation to create a very aggressive and deadly race as a temporary stop gap to slow the enemy Military Empires progression. This allowing time for the Galactic Empire defense fleet to arrive into the local area...

    Obviously, the humans don’t play ball, and cause all sorts of problems being young and with too much knowledge... like giving a toddler a handgun.



    Norfolk.
     
  9. LazyBear

    LazyBear Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    231
    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    It also depends on what kind of FTL travel they use. Wormholes are hard to create but would avoid the effects of relativity. Just using a very powerful electron propulsion engine would warp the time to make it feel like you're going faster than light, but your delivery will still be a few years late by never reaching the speed of light relative to the time around you.
     
  10. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    359
    In a time when people have the ability to travel the galaxy at high speed, what would they lack that would chain them economically or otherwise to a central government? Corn?
     
  11. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    @Fallow



    I agree totally, but my idea or plot thesis is the Human Race was interfered with. We tend to learn at a much faster rate than a “normal” upstart intelligent civilization. We in fact, have or display much higher aggressive predator traits...

    This artificial uplift, was designed to provide a stall or stop gap. It allowing the [MLM-3GE] empire to gather its defense forces into the right area.

    The Uplifted Child Race, develops to such an extent becomes a problem for both [MLM-3GE] and the intended target [MS-2.5GE] empire...



    Norfolk
     
  12. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    359
    I don't understand how any of that changes the fact that empires are held together by economic need, and people that can engineer the things you mentioned don't have economic need of anything. Why does the Emperor need an empire, and why do his subjects need to do anything but find a quiet spot to live in?
     
  13. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I think economical dependency would at first hold the structure together. However, that will not be enough in my opinion. The dependency would be knowledge growth...

    This knowledge, would be restricted keeping a hierarchy dependency in place.

    Economical structures will be dependent on restrictive resources or labour finesse that commands a premium. This will hold true for only a limited time in my opinion.



    NnC

    Certain civilizations may not want to UPLIFT and stay in a quiet corner to live in. This would be of course allowed. The knowledge “Hook” is a big temptation though... I for one believe Humans offered the UPLIFT or stay as is... would UPLIFT...
     
  14. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    359
    That rather sounds like you are talking around the problem with words that don't really have concrete meanings. Empire is a form of bondage, and I was asking what binds the empire together. If I was reading a book with a sentence like "This knowledge, would be restricted keeping a hierarchy dependency in place," I would probably stop reading. It doesn't actually mean anything, as far as I can tell.
     
  15. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    You make a fair and valid point.

    I’m not trying to talk round the problem I believe. Think of it this way, economical trade between two civilizations occurs how? Exchange of goods or services that’s bartered for other goods...

    What elements or mass would one civ need over another after relative expansion? A newly uplifted Civ would need and hunger for all sorts agreed. After a time though, this would plateau ie the MLM system.

    An individual culture may have ancient antiques that are desirable, but titanium no. What I’m thinking is the real currency of value is knowledge... from type 1 to 2 to 3...

    I take on board your point and I’ll think about it... Star Trek Universe as no economy as an example...



    NnC
     
  16. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

    Think about the core of the empire are at level3. Imagine these guys can break FTL. However, will lend or rent or temporarily give type2s FTL engines. That’s a massive hurdle…

    The Type2s must empower type1s and type1s must seek out potential type1s. Therefore, leading to the Empires expansion. Economical or commercial trade would occur the closer to the empires influences edge.
     
  17. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2019
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    359
    I think a pitfall of SF is this idea that everything is just a sportier version of what we know, rather than a series of paradigm destroying events. So when you say "barter and trade", I have to ask you if you are familiar with the idea of post-scarcity economies. We've never had one, but at some point people and societies will be able to make nearly anything possible for zero cost. And I think that people who can travel between the stars with any ease will have that capability to some extent.

    Sure, there is always some greater, bigger technology that would allow something previously impossible to be constructed. But there is also going to be a point where baseline humans just aren't going to be able to get excited about an even bigger Dyson sphere or whatever.

    So if you want to set up a fictional economy that is so powerful that space faring civilizations bind themselves to a central government, you ought to be able to describe some sort of incredible resource that would make bondage worthwhile. Otherwise, these satellite civilizations are just going to find their own systems to live in and tell the empire to get stuffed.

    By the same virtue, what does the "Emperor" need from his subjects? With massive technological power and the ability to make anything, what possible tribute could he benefit from? It isn't like even soldiers have value when you can make those from scratch.
     
    Norfoolk nWay likes this.
  18. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
     
  19. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
    I mean, what are the odds that a banned plagiarist member would have their thread picked up just two weeks later by someone with the same location, same profile picture, and damn near the same name?
    Banned Norfolk.png Norfuck.png


    Miraculous indeed.
     
    Shenanigator and Norfoolk nWay like this.
  20. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    oh no it is me... and I have tried to ask the dev's already.

    I did ask for a reply to the admin but no reply came...

    I still don't know if the ban is permanent or not?

    Plagiarist the work was not, myth or legend it was and so was the offer to take it down

    I'm happy to stay off the site if you feel strongly about it. Again no harm was intended.


    Nice spot fyi... what was the give away?


    NnC
     
  21. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
    Well, I can't speak for the mods, but according to the rules, you're pretty much fucked now:

     
    Norfoolk nWay and Shenanigator like this.
  22. Norfoolk nWay

    Norfoolk nWay Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    That is unfortunate. I’ve really enjoyed the time here, but obviously rules are rules and will abide by them. The community etc. have all been first rate.

    The only saving grace I have, maybe... is I did introduce nWay fully to the Admin staff when the ban first occurred. I got no response what so ever from his enquiry, blank. Which for future reference may be worth looking at for new comers... There is a difference between sock puppet-ing and why I created nWay. Just to find out why and what had happened...

    Maybe in future, when banning someone. On the login screen it says Banned. Possibly add if Permanent or not and for how long. Seriously I had no idea or why it happened.

    Again, thanks for your time @Iain Aschendale much appreciated



    M.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice